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Bought a used gray marble Coin-Op Tornado

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Offline bbtuna

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Re: Bought a used gray marble Coin-Op Tornado
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2009, 09:02:32 PM »
OM, thanks man 8)

Jin,
that is good news, the 30th is a really good table...i really want to see the pictures and the rods...read my stuff on the history of the Grey Mrbl...i am not overstating the fact that my friends 30th with the new men, bearings, handles, and 5 hour tumbled balls plays better than any other Tornado i have been on

the upside for you is very high and since you have some money to spend, we can definately make your table as good as it gets assuming there is no structural damage to the surface or walls

don't rush forward at this point, be patient and you will be able to set yourself up with a pristine table and one you can count on for the rest of your life with minor maintenance or upgrade tweaking over the years

Offline wildcard

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Re: Bought a used gray marble Coin-Op Tornado
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2009, 04:25:44 PM »
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Listen to charles, when it comes to tables he really knows his stuff!  8)

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Bought a used gray marble Coin-Op Tornado
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2009, 05:24:37 PM »
thanks wildcard

jin, i have avoided the laminet issue because it isn't my area of expertise but I know it can be changed to something new - Mark Murrell is a fooser and engineer and he has built some great tables and he started wraping them in metal and calling them F5's - Tornado flat ripped it off from him without so much as a "thank you very much"

he does other radical things that i won't list out here cause it takes to long and i'm feeling lazy...Mark has been instramental in the update version of the Warrior which is expected out and available fairly soon

mark is a stickler for details and Sir Flair really wanted to get it all right...mark did a lot of things but the one i am most excited about is the design of the man...he has the tools because of where he works to cast samples without committing to a permanent mold and he knows how a table should play and he went through many iterations to find the best one...this will be the first time real live R&D will have been used on a table before manufacturing begins

the challenge will be if they can take all the great design updates and control manufacturing enough to get what they ask for...its very tricky and hard to do especially overseas when you aren't there for every little thing

Re: Bought a used gray marble Coin-Op Tornado
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2009, 03:13:01 PM »
I like old school laminate marble look...but I guess the wrapped metal look is something that can grow on me.  I wonder how much work would be involved and how much that would cost...

I also got this info from a local fooser when I set out to look for a table (I won't say specifically who), but may be you can validate or invalidate on what s/he said:

One of the main things to watch out for on any table is how the holes were drilled for the rods.  There are a lot of tables out there that are drilled too low to the surface.  If the man is too close to the table surface the ball will lift up on a roll over or a good pull shot and hit the goalie rod.  There is no fix for this quality issue but you can check the height by placing a quarter on the table then put a nickel then a penny and then a dime in a stack and put all four coins under the middle 3 row play figure.  You should be able to spin the rod without touching the coins.  If you hit the dime or penny don't buy the table.  Also check the surface for warping, so bring a new ball with you to check for warping.  The ball will roll to the center if it's warped (if it's level).

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Bought a used gray marble Coin-Op Tornado
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2009, 04:22:27 PM »
thats good advice, well put but I will add a little

Rod Holes:   well, historically Tornado has never had the precision of precision engineered machines with tolerances at the .000001 of an inch and so forth...so, many tables rod holes are NOT drilled with the precision we all would like...Mark Murrell has documented this in a more scientific way

however, the holes aren't always drilled too low, some times it is just that the near hole isn't precisely aligned with the far hole so the rod is not perfectly horizontal with the table surface...this has been around the life of the table but has rarely (no table I have ever played on) been bad enough to create the ball lifting issue your source is talking about...not never, just no large batch obviously drilled low and no reason to not buy a table

up until the past couple of tournaments that Tornado has been running on the new Platinum Tour Ed table, the one with all the changes, especially at Worlds this year, that the drilling imperfection your source talks about has surfaced...some tables at Nationals (none I played on but at least one side of one table in the "pits") and many at Worlds had the holes drilled too low, not just misaligned.  Rollover shooters in particular were having big issues since the man would come around and sort of just scoop the ball up into the rods

Tornado has not really made this table available to the general public so you aren't going to run into any of them unless you were to consider buying a tournament used and I don't think Tornado is giving any of them up yet

soooo, your Gry Mrbl may not be perfect, but it really isn't likely to have a noticable issue

Table Surface:   Okay, again good but not complete...yes, warping is a deal breaker, trying to fix a warped surface or really warped or bubbling side walls are both deal killers unless you are super crafty like Mark Murrell

with that said talking about the metal wraped tables 2007-2008
Quote
Toward the end of the run and around the same time two important negative things happened...one is that they made a change in the production of the playing surface and there are a bunch of these tables with warped surfaces...if you get one of these warped surface tables you will own the worst Tornado ever made…I have had the misfortune of having to play on one of these and it ranks with the worst foosball experiences I can remember...EVER!  there is no excuse and no fixing it...

The warped playing surface tables showed up at Tornado tournaments to the dismay of many...there is a "fix" suggested out there were you put blocks under the top to push up the surface (available on other board)...I won't get into details but a warped playing surface on any table in foosball is unacceptable PERIOD...the playing surface needs to be replaced by the manufacture...this is bad enough it should have a recall.  Note:  Tornado acknowledges that the warping is real and their problem.  Tornado send a new surface but you have to replace the surface yourself and this is not easy for most people.  Best not to get one to begin with.

ADDED - so unless you are trying to get one of those tables you are probably safe...I have seen some badly abused Tornado tables that have had gallons of beer spilled on them and not cleaned over a long period of time and the it caused warping and I would have someone buying a table always to check but yours is probably okay, we will see with the pictures

Replacing Laminate: should not be an issue for a person who is handy...it is simply put on and if you are careful, you just take the pieces off one at a time, whole, and use them as a template...now, getting the replacement laminate might be an issue but whenever you decide to tackle that,  you can look further into getting the material from Tornado and doing something unique that fits your personality...you know like diamonds or other precisous stones
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 06:01:04 PM by bbtuna »

Re: Bought a used gray marble Coin-Op Tornado
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2009, 05:17:43 PM »
My source was Merkel...  I just didn't want any sort of bashing in case any one totally disagreed with him on the hole drilling issue, but since you agreed with his advise I don't see any harm in disclosing who my source is.

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Bought a used gray marble Coin-Op Tornado
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2009, 05:56:11 PM »
i think the whole issue at Nationals and Worlds was exacerbated by the bad rods Tor used in this last batch of tables...not Merkel rods, as you can read in my other posts, his rods i think are the best table change Tor has had in the history I can track

these rods supposed to have all the same specs but they bent easy...2 rods most but the 3 rods were having issues too

be glad you don't have to deal with that...we will want to check to see what rods you have are merkel and what has to be replaced and then we will go to Charles MacIntosh to see if he has any left...i think he has some 2 rods

Pictures of my table...
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2009, 11:23:59 PM »
Ok I finally found a few hours to clean my table, vacuum it out a bit and take some pics and post them...here are the Flickr links:
































Tell me what you think...
« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 12:14:26 AM by jinhopark »

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Bought a used gray marble Coin-Op Tornado
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2009, 11:10:10 AM »
good looking table...all the things "wrong" are non issue stuff or not visible...

GOAL:  you can clean those goals out with hot water and a little soap and a lot of scrubing with a greeny or maybe some bleach ---- not for sure, what would be best, but it isn't really anything important except that you are obviously very picky which is good

RODS:  if only the ends of a couple rods have some rust forming like is pictured here, then don't worry about it, I for sure would not change them now over that...I assume none of them are bent? 
Merkel Rods?   Next we will want to determine if they are merkel rods....not all the 30th Ann tables had them, some had none, some had some, some had all - i will post how to tell later today
Even if your 2 rods were in good shape but were NOT Merkel, I would get Merkel replacements if Charles MacIntosh still has them because when they are gone, there are no plans in the known future to reproduce the original version of this rod

MEN:  There was a mix of men on the 30th as well, read that in my history, it looks like you may have a mix, can't tell for sure without seeing more of them but since you want to upgrade, that won't be an issue.  Plan to replace the 2, 5, and 3 rods with 2-3 back up of each color...I would leave the goalie rods alone, those men will do just fine
$110.00

BEARINGS:  Plan to change the 3 and 5 rod bearings (only split inside half, the rest has no change)...no need to change the 2 or goalie since the fractional difference never comes into play
$24

SIDE-STRIPS:  Plan new strips
$25

NEW HANDLES:  For sure get the new handles, they actually impact play for the positive and even though I think they are sort of expensive, they are worth it.
$38

TOTAL:   $197

Re: Bought a used gray marble Coin-Op Tornado
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2009, 11:33:51 AM »
Thanks for the shopping list...

No rods are bent (that I can tell), but there is some rust pitting going on.  I just took a picture of the worst areas.  I'll probably call Charles to see what Merkle rods he has in stock and just buy those as replacments/backups (sounds like they are in short supply so I might as well have them on hand before there is NO supply).  On a side note my 2 man rods are the 2 that are in the BEST condition, with minimal corrosion going on.

Plus I'll need the 5 hr tumbled balls...  How many do you figure I should get for a coin-op?  Originally I thought just 9, but maybe a spare or 2 as a backup?

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Bought a used gray marble Coin-Op Tornado
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2009, 12:38:24 PM »
since money doesn't seem to be a big issue, i would get 20 of them

Re: Bought a used gray marble Coin-Op Tornado
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2009, 02:28:14 PM »
Then 20 it shall be...  Once I find my roll pin punch thingy I can assess which are Merkle rods.

Hmmmm...  Oddly enough I go to Elkridge, MD monthly for business, which I think is close to Glen Burnie, MD.  That being the case I wonder if it will be worthwhile to just visit Charles personally and make my purchase Vs. ordering online and having it shipped?  Do they have an actual store front, or is it all via phone/online?

Offline PatRyan

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Re: Bought a used gray marble Coin-Op Tornado
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2009, 03:18:56 PM »
jinhopark,

Just so you know, Charles is in North Carolina.  Jimmie, who provides us with this forum, and is the owner of foosball.com, has a warehouse in Glen Burnie, MD.

You should come by and play when you are in Elkridge!  We play a couple Saturdays each month in Jessup, MD. And there is usually someone there practicing on Wednesday evenings (not too late, just a few hours of practice by a couple of locals)

Jimmie MIGHT have some merkel rods, not sure.  But he will certainly have all of the other parts you need.  When is the next time you will be in Elkridge?


Re: Bought a used gray marble Coin-Op Tornado
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2009, 04:36:45 PM »
Shoot, sorry for confusing the heck out of myself and others!  Yeah I guess I meant to say Jimmie, not Charles.

I have no clue where Jessup, MD is.  My Maryland geography is pretty bad, basically I just fly in to BWI, go to my hotel, have dinner at G&M's in Linthicum Heights or at Timbuktu's in Hanover...go back to the hotel, sleep, go to our Elkridge plant, go back to dinner, drive back to the hotel, drive back to the plant...this cycles continues until I fly back to Chicago.  Sorry to get even more off topic, but I can honestly say I have never had better crabcakes than I have had in Maryland...

Anyways, I just recently went so my next trip probably will not be until early December...so I'm not sure if I can wait that long for parts...  My kids and I are anxious to start playing some foosball on the "new" table.

Offline PatRyan

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Re: Bought a used gray marble Coin-Op Tornado
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2009, 05:19:31 PM »
Jinhopark,

Well, from your described itinerary, you come VERY close to Jessup.  Jessup is the next town down from Elkridge, south on US Route 1.  From your Elkridge plant (doesn't matter where in Elkridge, it is a pretty small place), you are no more than 5 minutes from where we play in Jessup. 5 Minutes from Timbuktu as well. 

You seem to eat at 2 of the best places for crabcakes as well.  (G&M is the best, imho)

Let me know the next time you are in town, we can meet for some foos.  Are you usually in town only during the week, or are you in town on the weekend as well?