Topic: A little hesitant about stopping by to ask a question (updated...again) :)

[Alan Cribbs]

Shipped a table to Australia 2 weeks ago.
Foosball is gathering up speed downunder and it's summetime.

[bbtuna]

a table is a table is a table...if all you want to do is play casually with your family until your kids leave home, any table is fine...why pay for a Tornado coin opp or a brand new Fireball when you can go to walmart and get a table for $200 brand new?

yea, and the $100 ? pool table I got when I was a teen with the plywood surface is the same as a competition pool table and would last just as long and of course the play would be the same even for a novice...a $14.86 tennis racket from Walmart or the pros $300 racket or the $120 Walmart set of golf clubs and a $2000+ for pro clubs

the people on this site are not over zealous crazy foos nerds who don't understand those who want to play casual

I will speak now for me...I give advice because I love the game and still remember the first time I played and want to help people who want to play....doesn't matter to me if a person is a occasional player or someone who has caught the tournament bug...I am excited to find people who enjoy the game at whatever level and I want to help them any way I can…I have spent many hours off line helping people evaluate their situation and finding a table that fits their situation

Also, I have played on all kinds of tables from $100 ? to $3000 Bonzini – I have played on the home model Tornado’s up to and including the Cyclone

you buy a USED Tornado coin op (or T2000/T3000 split top non-coin op)…you can find them from $300-$700 if you shop smart…its easy to evaluate them and to ensure you don’t get one of the tables that had warped surfaces (only made at the end of the T2000 “fridge” run when transitioning to the T3000 – about a year) outside of that, any coin op, any year from mid 1980’s on

why this and not a cyclone…
•   because you will pay the same for a cyclone as you do for a used coin op…even a used cyclone
•   the coin op plays better
•   the coin op is built better…WAY better

a coin op will literally last a life time and if you decide you or one or more of your kids are interested in being more serious, they will already have a table everyone plays on

the bar we play in regularly, bought a Brown Marble brand new and it was in this bar for 15 years before they pulled it for a newer table to try and keep the foosers business…that table was abused by casual bar hacks and after 15 years still played as good as any table I play on…I would for sure own that table at home and would expect it, with minor TLC, to last 30 more years

there have been upgrades to the table since then but a casual player would find it hard to notice the differences so nothing driving you to spend $200 for a full upgrade but all changes are backward compatible going back to the brown marble…this means if you decide someday to get more serious, you can convert your table and get all the playing characteristics that the “serious” player gets

the only other table I would consider or recommend is the new Fireball…great playing characteristics and super good results from players on the build quality and you should be able to pick up a tournament used for around $700 so your budget will have to be at least that high

you said you couldn’t find where to buy one….contact info below and their website to see details about the table….if you decide u want to pursue FB the contacts below should be able to get you in contact with someone who has the model you want and hopefully in a tournament used (tournament used because they are a couple hundred cheaper usually and are like new)


Dennis
In any case, I can be reached at 1-800 770-4263 or
foosball_site@yahoo.com

[bolt115]

As the owner of a Storm II (like new) i got used I can say with certainty the quality is top notch. The cabinet is very solid and sturdy at 225lbs. Had I come across a coin op for 400 or less that would have been great....but I am not complaining.  In a home setting this table will last indefinitely. 

Storm II Features:

    * 1-1/2" Gray marble laminate cabinet with rounded corners
    * Friction grip wooden handle
    * Centerless ground, chrome plated, hollow steel rods
    * Three-man goalie
    * Patented man and cushion system
    * Side ball return
    * Adjustable leg levelers
    * Solid legs that will not warp or split
    * Patented centerless ground urethane balls
    * .125 Thick wall rods
    * Laminated play field
    * Counter balanced men

Dimensions:

    * Length: 56"
    * Width: 30"
    * Height: 36"
    * Weight: 225 lbs.


The Cyclone II is even a step up(split bearings and thicker rods):

    * 1-1/2" Teak laminate cabinet with rounded corners
    * Friction grip wooden handle
    * Center less ground, chrome plated, hollow steel rods
    * Three-man goalie
    * Patented man and cushion system
    * Foosball Table Tornado Side ball return
    * Adjustable leg levelers
    * Solid legs that will not warp or split
    * Patented center less ground urethane balls
    * .156 thick wall rods
    * Laminated play field
    * Counter balanced men
    * Split bearings

Tornado Professional Foosball Table Dimensions:

    * Length: 56"
    * Width: 30"
    * Height: 36"
    * Weight: 225 lbs.



 

[Old Meister]

Hey Shift, that's pretty cool you guys are doing that. You "down under's" are a fun bunch. It will be interesting to see the style that comes from there. Maybe you should contact Dennis from Fireball an see if you can get some help in promoting the game.

[bbtuna]

of course it is a matter of opinion but I can give you plenty of testimonials saying the Storm is a piece of junk...I have played on it and the Cyclone many times...

the storm may say it weighs 225 but that is only one factor...the bearing on that table are a joke and the rods with the bearings are terrible...i suppose to some degree it is what you are used to but my church has one of these and it has a very hard time handling my game and it limits what I can do....ironically the church has 2 other tables, Camaron both I think but both very different styles and they are sturdier but at the same time the design and men make playing a joke and yet the Tornado is the last table the kids will choose on their own to play on

I have played for years on the Cyclone, 2 very good friends bought Cyclones when they started out thinking there was no difference, same rods, split bearings etc and both of them after playing on coin ops for several years finally saw the difference and both ended up selling their Cyclones when they could and buying coin ops....both tables after a fair amount of play were showing wear but my coin op after 7 years of 2-4 hours a day hard practice, is like new

there is no way a Storm or Cyclone will hold up anything near like the coin op does...now with that said, and I am not talking out both sides of my mouth, to be fair, you can get world class good playing on a Cyclone…the 2008 Worlds Semi Singles got to his level practicing on a Cyclone

even with that said, he will tell you the coin op is a much better table – still, if you want to provide a great time of play, and have one that will work for the most casual player or provide the basis for more serious growth if anyone becomes interested….the playing experience, assuming you have Tornado foosballs, is so much better

your family of course won’t see the difference or have a point of reference but it will allow for them the greatest chance of enjoying the game and playing for years to come

I am 53 and can still play at a very high level, I am even still getting better, so foosball can be a game to play for a lifetime and there is no reason not to pay smart money for the right table right away

I have found dozens of tables for people on this board and have tracked the sale, or non sale, of all Tornado coin ops on eBay for more than 4 years now, and I still do, and I know what tables sell for and how much you can get them for…you can find early coin op Brown Marbles for $300-$400 and that table is better than any home model Tornado ever made…within the last 7 months I have seen at least 6 Grey Marbles sell for $500 which is an absolute steal…you can get any model ever made except for the most recent, for $700 or less (I don’t think they are all worth $700, I am just saying you can get a great table for a great deal if you take  your time….if you have bucks to spend you can buy the current model for about $1250 delivered

And if you want the latest greatest you can buy a FB home model and get the best of both worlds for about $700 or a coin op for about $900

[bolt115]

Calling the Tornado home tables junk(at least Storm II or Cyclone II as i am not familiar with other tables)  is down right mis- leading. To imply they are like a walmart table...come on.  I had not played in 10 years... I came across my inferior table and once again I am hooked on the game. I am able to practice on the Storm II and see improvement when I head to the pub and play on a T3000.   To not be completely combative...    I will agree the coin op for the same price is a better deal and given the option that is the way to go.   

[papafoos]

Bolt, don't take it the wrong way.  Keep in mind, most of the people on the board who give advice are hard core players and sometimes forget that not everyone else is.  Probably all the tournament players prefer the coin ops and sometimes they come off in a bad way to less hard core players.

I'm a coin op Tornado player myself.  I learned to play on an old German clone that I don't really care to play on anymore.  Even though I started playing Tornado in the 70's, it didn't become my favorite table until the early 80's.  I've played the Fireball and I have to admit, it plays really well.  I'm hesitant to recommend it though because they don't have a track record.  That comes after a few years and not something that happens overnight.  I do think they're on the right track though.

If you get enjoyment out of your table, that's great.  Have fun and when you get the chance come out and join the party.  You'll find a lot of new friends with a passion for foosball.

[wayupnorth]

Wow, I continue to get great information out of this thread.  I am truly grateful for those of you who take the time to discuss this issue.  I read somewhere that most of the new posters on here come looking for information on what table to buy.  So, for them, as well, I hope this thread will prove helpful in the future and you will have to do at least a *little* less rehashing of the same info over and over again.  (I am on a photography forum and we spend quite a bit of time helping newbies through the same issues over and over again.  I don't mind, though, because I remember starting myself and how difficult the learning curve can be.)  So, again, thanks. 

I want to make the right decision, which is why I came here after sifting through every bit of info I could find on the net.

I spoke with the lady at the Tornado manufacturer in Texas (on a different issue) and ended up discussing the home tables with her.  Her take was that either the Classic or Elite would work well for my needs.  Both weigh 225lbs.  Both have the same counterbalanced men (unlike the Sport, which does not have counterbalanced men).  The bearings are 1pc snap in on the Classic vs. 2 pc slip bearing on the Elite (which she said meant that, if you have to replace a man or clean bearings, the 2 pc slip is easier).  Both have hollow rods, although the rod wall thickness is slightly thicker on the Elite than on the Classic.

After speaking to her, I had just about settled on the Classic before returning here to this site again to re-read this thread, finding more information. 

One thing I have realized, in bantering about the different options is that, with a coin-op, there is a wider market available if we needed to get rid of it someday.  While a high-end home model will most likely only appeal to other families looking for a high-end table (fewer and farther between in a state with only 600,000 people and an island city of only about 14,000), a coin op would have the benefit of appealing to businesses, as well as families looking for a high-end table (provided it is in excellent condition).  Additionally, if we really wanted to hassle with it, there would always be the option of placing the table somewhere and letting it earn its keep. 

As I mentioned, the biggest problems for me in acquiring a used table at a "bargain" price are that I can't see the table in person and, most importantly, the table has to be shipped...a LONG way and, most likely, through two different shippers...one to Seattle and another up to our location.  Someone who doesn't know what they are doing when packaging could easily end up allowing the table to be damaged through the shipping process. 

So, all that said, I found a brand new Elite or a 2002 mahogany at a reputable dealer for about the same price after shipping (since the mahogany is 100lbs. heavier).  After reading through here, though, it seems that the mahogany might not be as good of a price as I should try to look for, but, like I said, my options for shipping a used table with someone who knows what they are doing are limited.  Maybe it's worth the extra dollars to know that it's been reconditioned, is in great shape, and will be shipped well. 

The question ends up ultimately with, should I buy the used table for more than it's worth (according to my research) or get the Elite at what would appear be a really good price?

(or, of course, forget the whole thing because I am so overwhelmed with choices and options........<sigh>)

[bbtuna]

papafoos-no need to apologize for me because I am a stilted "tournament" player who, unlike you the rational balanced tournament player, have lost touch with Mr Average Joe Casual Player

I have not lost touch, I understand what these people are looking for and how they plan to use a table and it is still my professional opinion that this is the right way to go taking into consideration ALL the variables and options

people have been coming on here for years asking for help buying tables, I have provided this help and am contacted regularly as I was yesterday again...I have helped probably more than 2 dozen people find the right table...

I know plenty of them who were very excited and thankful that they got a coin op instead of the many other options they considered...I have many people say they bought a less expensive version and later moved up to a coin op and after getting it, they felt they wasted time and money on the lesser model.  I have never heard of someone saying it the other way around

I work hard to not judge and to accommodate people's wants, needs, and budgets but in the end, everyone who comes on here wants the best they can get for the least amount of money

There is no better dollar/value ratio than buying a used coin op…it’s a no-brainer really…someone is thinking of spending $900-$1200 on a new “Classic” or “Elite” but they can get a Grey Marble coin op for $500-$700…that is a “no-brainer”

If someone said they could get a Cyclone II for $450 (which for a Cyclone would be a really good price) but they could pick up a Brown Marble for $350-$450, a blond or Cherry for $400-$500, a Grey Marble for $500-$700….NO-BRAINER

The difference in quality between the home models, even the best of them like the Cyclone, is very very great…heaven forbid you compare the tables under the Cyclone with one piece bearings…I don’t care if they weight 225 lbs, there is more to quality than weight

Most people come on here wanting to spend $300-$600…you can find good used coin ops in that price range, so it is my responsibility as a UNBIASED student of the game, to influence these people to buy a coin op which they can get for $300-$600

And if one out of 10 people who come on here have a more “flexible” budget, then I still say coin op….as a matter of fact, the higher the budget the more sense it makes

The only person I can’t help is the one who can’t spend at least $350…if they want a $200 table, I say hold up there bucko, save your money for a couple of months and get a larger budget

there are other reasons for buying a coin op besides it’s a great value but those have been talked about many times and I won’t repeat them on this post

no way to justify buying something else…its simple math and it doesn’t take much to see the quality that is available

[bbtuna]

BOLT...sorry to used such a harsh term and get you on the defensive..the Cyclone is not junk...its not nearly as good a table as a coin op...rods are different and the overall construction is better which is why the coin op weighs 125 lbs more than those other tables

I can't candy coat any table Tornado makes that has fixed bearings...its really not good or in one word, junk....of course that is relative...not junk like Walmart junk, junk compared to what they can buy for the same or nearly the same money...Walmart tables are "complete crap"...see the difference 

[bbtuna]

wayupnorth-

well you are right, it would be good not to rehash all this which is why I wrote this thread a year and a half ago

http://www.foosball.com/forum/index.php?topic=2704.msg12904

how much do you have to spend and how much is the freight on both these tables....I am asking because I am wondering if we could find another coin op for less (asking price)...shipping is a given variable right? so its about getting the best price you can

if those were the only two options for sure then I would go Cherry of course

[wayupnorth]

Hi, thanks again for the info.

I did read through the thread you wrote, but I had other more specific questions that weren't addressed.  Of course, there's no way to address every iteration of every question, thus another thread is born to continue the debate.

I'll send you a PM about the table I am looking at.

Thanks!

[bolt115]

*sigh*

bbtuna,

        If by defensive you mean my own opinion, guilty.  I had hoped I could just let it go but alas I have not yet reached that level of maturity. Split bearings are better than one piece(a point we agree on). A coin-op tornado is top of the line(again like minded).   I own a table with one piece bearings. Another table i play on regularly is a t-3000 coin-op(I originally learned to play on a brown marble coin-op).  In no way am I implying the light home tables are the same as a coin-op. 

With a little silicone the rods move smooth on the table I own. The playing surface is 3/4 inch and the men are the same as an older coin-op. The table dimensions are identical.The table I bought was 20 miles away and in excellent condition($400) with no shipping cost, comparable to Tornado Classic. I believe a used Coin-op in the same condition would have been ~$800  not that there have been any for sale in my area(VT).

 

You have yet to offer a specific reason you consider a snap in bearing junk as opposed to a cheaper alternative for home table. Your main argument appears to be "because I say so.."   in a perfect world everyone would have a t-3000. 

P.S.  the cyclone does have the heavier rods.
 

[bbtuna]

bolt, you said

"In no way am I implying the light home tables are the same as a coin-op."  Okay, that is my point so the discussion is over...thanks for finally agreeing with me 

one piece bearings the rod moves around too much and between that and the differnce in the rod itself, thinner walls and not heat treated, it impacts play...they also do not stop in the same place on the table surface...the rod/bearing doesn't handle a palm roll as well and with all these things and the relative flimsy build quality, the goal box make up, it makes that table junk...oh, and overall, a storm will NOT hold up to the same wear, or anything even close, that a coin op will...if a storm is worth $1 a pound, and coin op is worth $3 a pound...and in real life, I can get a coin op near $1 for $1 or worst case maybe $1 for $1.25...well worth the difference

as I said, we had a brown marble at our favorite bar that was purchased and placed in there brand new ... this table was in this bar for 15 years and suffered serious abuse by bar hacks that entire time...we came in once a week and cleaned it before we played and when it was switched out a year or so ago, it was still a good table...I storm wouldn't last a year in that bar...end of discussion

lets move on

if you like playing on the table, then more power to you but if I can get a coin op for the same or a little more, there should be no discussion...

[bolt115]

"...  storm(II) wouldn't last a year in that bar..."   a home is not a bar.  My dining room table would probably not last too long in a bar but will last a lifetime at my home. As for the goal make up...   you lost me on that one, the playing surface is absolutely solid.   Flimsy is flat out mis-representation plain and simple. Should the need arise all wear parts are replaceable. I think maybe the home table you have used had been abused? My experience with this table is a bit more extensive. 

Search for a coin-op in your price range......should that not look promising take a look at a home version and make up your own mind.