Topic: Fireball has a new ball! My prayers have been answered!!!

[jinhopark]

Fireball rod is slightly shorter about a 1/4 inch. I have never tried to put one on the Tornado table. However, I just happen to be going over to China on Friday and I will bet I can have a bunch of rods made to fit the T table. I don't have to have them made in black. They will weight about the same and have the holes drilled to match the T rod (they might already be correct).

The Handle for the Fireball will fit the T rod and vice-a-verse. 

Tonight, I will look at this as a real option for T rod replacements.

Brad

Brad:

If all you did was make Tornado 2-rod replacements I'm sure you can sell quite a bit.  I'd replace all my rods on both my tables with your "undestructable" Fireball rods, provided they were reasonably priced.  Not sure how many Tornado tables are out there, but I'm sure 1/2 the tables in service have a bent 2-rod or 3-rod or...although far more infrequent, I've seen Merkel rods with a nice curve to them.

You could market these as rod "upgrades" and offer them in black and chrome...  I definitely see a potential to sell these rods and the handles to all the Tornado fans out there.

[akoudrin]

I just happen to be going over to China on Friday and I will bet I can have a bunch of rods made to fit the T table.

Brad:

I would be very interested in getting new rods. I'm a special case, because I'm located in Wellington, New Zealand and the shipping costs of new rods from the U.S. is a killer for me. Could you find out if there is an economical way to ship these Fireball type T rods from China to Wellington? You can contact me directly if needed on alex[dot]koudrin[at]gmail[dot]com

Also, how indestructable are these rods exactly? Are they supposed to be better than Merkel everyone dreams about?

[foozkillah]

Also, how indestructable are these rods exactly? Are they supposed to be better than Merkel everyone dreams about?

AK, have you done the minimum on your part... to go to fireball's website and check the promo video?
That may help a lot, just from that...
; Just a suggezt...  unless they've taken all these promo pics and vids off...

[akoudrin]

AK, have you done the minimum on your part... to go to fireball's website and check the promo video?

You're right. I'll take a look at the videos at home. However, self promotional statements and videos may not always provide an unbiased comparison. I was just interested if someone tested this independently here?

[BradLaurine]

Akoudrin,
Alex...
Check out the you tube video that Ron Olson did last year (low quality video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=161Ja6Q7zEY
At the 1:30 sec mark, Ron and Dennis goes over the rods and the strength. I would only guess that a current Tornado rod would bend like a noodle and stay bent if you were to hang off the three rod like Dennis does. 80 kilos is near 175. Tony stood on this very same table and it's rods a few months before at 87 Kilos.
I spoke 2 nights ago to Dennis about selling replacement rods. Right now the Fireball rod would work except they are slightly larger in diameter. The length and holes are correct (1/4 shorter) but with the diameter too large it won't work. That is not completely true, you have to ream the T men to fit by 0.009". I have a OEM mic and that is the difference.
When I go to China on Friday, Dennis and I will make plans on setting up the rods.
Sorry, I am not a good source for unbiased information. Ron Olsen is unbiased and gravity hasn't changed in the last 2 years. LOL

Merkel rods are awesome. They don't stay bent either unless you put sustained weight to them over 65 kilos and at the end of the bar. Again, self promoting bias information but I know because I am a PRO player that just happens to be involved with manufacturing Foosball tables.
Understand my statements come from two places. First, I am a player of the game, I play on Tornado and Fireball. Second, I was involved for many years behind the scenes with Tornado. Dennis needed help and I jumped at the chance to be involve with the team. I know it is a better playing table for all skill level of players.

Thanks, Brad Laurine

[foozkillah]

AK..
Uhhh... yeah..... what he said... ↑

;P

[akoudrin]

Cool. I took at the video and the rods look promising.

As a general wondering/suggestion/nice to have....

It would be nice to get several types of rods in a more scientific experiment, recording all the measurements. For example, if you get the original T rod, Merkel rod, current heat-treated T rod, and the Fireball rod (probably looking at the longest - 2 men rod) and put them between two stacks of bricks. You then start putting 20 kgs, 30 kgs, etc on each rod recording precisely how much each rod bends and whether it bends back or stays that way. This way you can precisely show measurement of how much better each rod compared to others in a clear and scientific way!

Also, rod surface/coating tests would be nice. For example, you could set up a test where the rods are severely scratched and have some measure to say they are still playable after a certain amount of scratches.

Without these facts, people tend to discuss vague terms such as a Merkel rod not being bent after 2 years in a bar. This could mean many things. Granted, it generally indicates that Merkels are stronger, but it doesn't indicate by how much. Also people talk about a tougher rod surface, but it isn't backed up by solid facts or experiment results.

The same thing could be done about any component of each table including the table frame itself. In general it would be nice to have a website or study that compared all major ITSF approved tables in an unbiased scientific way in terms of dimensions and quality of each component as well as playability, of course! Just as you read comparisons of computer components on say, tomshardware, before you buy those components, the same could be done for foosball!

Please not that I'm definitely not criticizing or disputing any claims above. But I think many would agree that comparing and discussing facts is much fairer avoiding many arguments and questions. This would make decision making about tables and parts many fold easier.

Heh, if I was located in US I could probably embark on something like that, but as it stands it took me over a year to get an old Brown Marble with all its rods rusted and replaced by stainless steel non-hollow ones.

[jinhopark]

Cool. I took at the video and the rods look promising.

As a general wondering/suggestion/nice to have....

It would be nice to get several types of rods in a more scientific experiment, recording all the measurements. For example, if you get the original T rod, Merkel rod, current heat-treated T rod, and the Fireball rod (probably looking at the longest - 2 men rod) and put them between two stacks of bricks. You then start putting 20 kgs, 30 kgs, etc on each rod recording precisely how much each rod bends and whether it bends back or stays that way. This way you can precisely show measurement of how much better each rod compared to others in a clear and scientific way!

Also, rod surface/coating tests would be nice. For example, you could set up a test where the rods are severely scratched and have some measure to say they are still playable after a certain amount of scratches.

Without these facts, people tend to discuss vague terms such as a Merkel rod not being bent after 2 years in a bar. This could mean many things. Granted, it generally indicates that Merkels are stronger, but it doesn't indicate by how much. Also people talk about a tougher rod surface, but it isn't backed up by solid facts or experiment results.

The same thing could be done about any component of each table including the table frame itself. In general it would be nice to have a website or study that compared all major ITSF approved tables in an unbiased scientific way in terms of dimensions and quality of each component as well as playability, of course! Just as you read comparisons of computer components on say, tomshardware, before you buy those components, the same could be done for foosball!

Please not that I'm definitely not criticizing or disputing any claims above. But I think many would agree that comparing and discussing facts is much fairer avoiding many arguments and questions. This would make decision making about tables and parts many fold easier.

Heh, if I was located in US I could probably embark on something like that, but as it stands it took me over a year to get an old Brown Marble with all its rods rusted and replaced by stainless steel non-hollow ones.

"...the rods look promising" is an understatement.

No one is going to do that type of testing, especially when it can just be summed up as:

Fireball rods > Merkel rods > heat treated rods > and then every other rod out there.

[BradLaurine]

Ak,
Well written letter.
Nicely thought out.

Even if the test were done and met certain scientific parameters, I have the feeling it could be met with skepticism. Any Company would be viewed with a bias, that preformed the test. I would also think a Company would be the only one that would want to release the information if it showed that they were superior. Independent analysis is nice.
I will give to anyone that wants to do this test, a 2 bar. You pay for the freight and I will cough up the 2 bar for testing.
I will be gone to China and I can't get on this board (China rules, not mine) to see what is happening after Friday.

Later, Brad   

[jinhopark]

Ak,
Well written letter.
Nicely thought out.

Even if the test were done and met certain scientific parameters, I have the feeling it could be met with skepticism. Any Company would be viewed with a bias, that preformed the test. I would also think a Company would be the only one that would want to release the information if it showed that they were superior. Independent analysis is nice.
I will give to anyone that wants to do this test, a 2 bar. You pay for the freight and I will cough up the 2 bar for testing.
I will be gone to China and I can't get on this board (China rules, not mine) to see what is happening after Friday.

Later, Brad   

Brad:

I call dibbs on the first batch of Fireball rod with Tornado rod specs...lol!

Have a prosperous/fun/safe trip out to China!

[akoudrin]

JI:

No one is going to do that type of testing, especially when it can just be summed up as:

Fireball rods > Merkel rods > heat treated rods > and then every other rod out there.

One, how do I know what you've written is true. Two, as I said, exactly the same thing is being done computer parts on tomshardware and many other sites. Three, yes, you're probably right about the summary of it, but my point is that it's haresay. Also, better (">") could mean 1% stronger or 50% stronger. So what I'm saying is it could turn out that current heat-treated rods are only 15% weaker than Fireball rods. In that case it immediately becomes less vital in obtaining them. However, if they are 50%+ stronger that makes an extremely appealing case for getting Fireball rods! See what I mean?

Anyone can compare these three rods only (Fireball, Merkel & Heat-treated). Set them up so you can put weights on them easilty. One way is to hang a bucket with a load of bricks and make measurements on how the rod bends in the middle and whether it remains bent. Record measurements and photos. Then post here on the forum. Easy!

Of course, the biggest obstacle to performing this experiment is sourcing and sacrificing these rods. It could be difficult with Merkels as they are not manufactured anymore. At the very least heat-treated vs Fireball should be done. If anyone sends me those two rods to Wellington, New Zealand, I'd be more than happy to perform the experiment for us

In the general sense of comparing parts/tables etc. It could be done either by an enthusiast of which I'm sure there are many out there. It could also be done as a business, but a good business model needs to be thought out and I can't immediately think of a good one right now.

BRAD:

Independent analysis is nice.

Yep, it has to be independent, of course!

Good luck in China. Let us know what the outcome is.

[jinhopark]

You don't have to trust/believe anything I say as these are just my personal observations.  I will say I have replaced my fair share of 2 man rods (heat treated and not heat treated), and I have a bent 2 man Merkel rod.  I've never seen a bent Fireball rod, no matter what abuse it has seen.

Donated rods can be looked upon as being biased as well...thus the reason why a popular magazine here in the US, Consumer Reports, does not accept advertising dollars nor do they accept donated items for testing.  They make it a point to say they purchase all their items "off the shelf" just as any consumer would Vs. being given a test version, which unscrupulous manufacturers may make slightly more robust for favorable testing results.

There are also other things to test...smoothness of rod for less bearing friction and scratch/corrosion resistance...no sense in having a table that can last 20 years and then have the rods rust out and to become useless in 10.

Again, as far as I know Merkel is not making any more of his rods so it really may be a choice between a Fireball rod or a Tornado Chinese heat-treated rod...again, this is just my opinion...but I would take the Fireball rod over the current Tornado Chinese heat-treated rod.

[jinhopark]

BTW, a good way to keep your bars straight is to keep Ryan Moore off your table:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Foosball-Master-Tour/93081882609?ref=ts#!/photo.php?fbid=1113066261155&set=a.1020526267713.4153.1061873646&type=1&theater

[akoudrin]

Yeah, fair enough. I think the general consensus is that Fireball has the best current rods by a mile. We'll just have to wait and see when/if they start making them for Tornado. If they make the cost below T-rods then it will be a no brainer! I'm certainly in and keen