Topic: snake shot without wrist

[qiqiyan]

hey guys,
I'm learning the snake shot. But instead of using the wrist, I found it much more comfortable and controllable to not change to the "wrist grip", but use a normal grip instead. What I do is when hitting the ball, I just spin the rod, but after it hits the ball, but hasn't travelled more than 360 degrees, I hold the rod firmly to stop it.
I wonder if this is illegal? It is completely legal to me as long as I don't spin the rod too much. But a friend is claiming that it's illegal.
Thanks,
Qiqi

[foozkillah]

You mean you're holding with a normal closed-hand grip and spin the handle in place to shoot a shot, without going past 360deg?  That's legal and a pretty common Euro shot.

[thebodygroove]

That's the way every Euro-Pin Shooter executes the straight. It's perfectly legal - but pretty lame as a series. We call it "Kurbler" which translates into "cranker", and it used to be a common shot on German tables before people started practicing effective methods to score.

Hence my recommendation: Don't use it. Practice a conventional Roller, a Pull or a Euro-Pin.

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[foozkillah]

That's the way every Euro-Pin Shooter executes the straight. It's perfectly legal - but pretty
lame as a series. We call it "Kurbler" which translates into "cranker", and it used to be a
common shot on German tables before people started practicing effective methods to score.
Hence my recommendation: Don't use it. Practice a conventional Roller, a Pull or a Euro-Pin.

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If you've been watching the US streamcasts this year TBG, especially those where
Rico and Spredey and Billy and Ryan have been featured...
;
1. It's called a flipover in many places here..
    It is regarded as the dink or quickset for rollover shooters against slack defenders.
2. It's not often a straight as used in pickups, tournament, and MONEY MATCHES
    (SpredeyVSRicoVSBILLYVSEverybody).
3. Spredeman and Billy have a quick short square flipover push, and they use it
    extensively for a quickset as they set up the front pin.  When they get going,
    they also use it in "turbo" mode.  stop the ball on the 32 and immediately flipover.
4. Rico has a very short spray push flipover, a longer pullside that razors, and of course
    the straight like most Euro shooters. He prolly has a dozen other variants.
5. You can see Spredey and the others practicing flipovers very seriously on the streams..
    you saw it in Kentucky, and at Runaway bay and at Worlds ..     and they USE it.
    In matches and not only pickup games.
;
It's pretty quick, and is pretty effective, even in Open matches.
;
I agree with you that qiqiyan should not practice it as a main/kill shot at high speed,
but he should master a conventional shot like a Euro or rollover or pull/push/kick first.
But that flipover has proven to be the DINK variation on rollovers, so not practicing it
or not recommending it at all is tantamount to not practicing DINKS from the other
shots like a pull or pullkick or pushkick or tic tac series.
It has value as an off-speed shot and a quickset for sleeping or distracted defenders.
;
Unless you know something Frederico or Spredey or Ryan or Billy Pappas and the
rest of us don't know or haven't noticed.  You shoot a Euro, if I'm not mistaken, so
there may be a better dink variation that also does the distracting wheel motion,
with or without the ball actually moving laterally that could be better.
;
But for rollover/snake shooters.. THIS IS a great DINK or OFFSPEED variation.
Easy practice.  Good advantage to have an extra weapon.

[thebodygroove]

Hey Killah!

You won't get any argument from me on this. As a quick shot in a Snake series, or as a means to reach very short holes in a Euro series, the flipover works very well. Just like Tony's Pull Kick or Rico's Push Kick are lethal weapons and valuable additions to their series without being recommendable as main shots.

I shoot a Roller, but I will still use a flipover during my setup whenever I notice that the goalie isn't blocking the straight. When I play goalie, I often use it for straight passes.

But: As soon as there's any lateral movement involved, there are better choices than the flipover, such as the Euro. It's faster, more powerful and more consistant.

You should also bear in mind that the likes of Rico, Tony, Billy and Ryan can't serve as role models for guys like us when it comes to technique. Rico could probably win a major tournament using the flipover exclusively on every position. That doesn't mean it's a good shot. Have you seen this?

Back on topic:
There's no shot that matches the Snake if it comes to the combination of precision, speed and consistency. It feels awkward when you first try it, but the more you get used to it, the less you understand why anyone would want to shoot anything else.   

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[foozkillah]

Hey Killah!
.....
You should also bear in mind that the likes of Rico, Tony, Billy and Ryan can't serve as role models for guys like us when it comes to technique. Rico could probably win a major tournament using the flipover exclusively on every position. That doesn't mean it's a good shot. Have you seen this?
.....

;
Huh? Then WHO THE HECK do you think should be the proper role models for aspiring foosers?
1. Who ELSE practices and executes correct techniques more often and more clearly than these guys?
2. Who ELSE shows the best timing and shot selection among all the world's players?
3. Who ELSE illustrates instantly what happens when you don't execute, or pick the wrong shot or pass?
;
Maybe you didn't catch what you were writing, but thanks to the internet and personal computing,
aspiring foosers certainly DON'T EVER NEED TO USE THE LOCAL HACK or SCRUB EXPERTS in their
locale as role models.  As in any sport or game of skill, you could do worse to imitate (at least at first)
those proven to be world-beaters at the very top of that sport or game.  YOU DISAGREE?
;
Stop trying to execute a jumpshot like Kobe Bryant's technically perfect approach and release?
Stop trying to mark people and continue marking them with backup like Real Madrid illustrates so well?
Don't ever try to emulate professional World and Olympic champions in their choice of playmaking?
;
??  EXTREMELY CONFUSED AS I"M SURE MANY ARE BY YOUR REALLY STRANGE STATEMENT.

[thebodygroove]

I'm sorry for having misphrased that. Of course these guys are our role models. What I meant is that you can't watch them executing a certain technique successfully and conclude that this is something you should practice as well. Some things work for them because they are super players, but they wouldn't work for any of us. Watch the video: Rico effortlessly destroys a German Pro Master on his home table with a completely crazy offensive series. Should one assume that one could be successful oneself using this series? I don't think so. Should one conclude that practicing ball control is a good thing because Rico benefits so strongly from his supreme control? Definitely.

As in any sport or game of skill, you could do worse to imitate (at least at first)
those proven to be world-beaters at the very top of that sport or game.  YOU DISAGREE?

No. But imitating them should be done consistently. Trying to execute a technique like these guys do it is not enough. You have to imitate their practice routines as well. And sometimes even that will not suffice. You should also imitate their having started to play Foosball at the age of seven.

I'll give you a more prominent and obvious example: Tony's Snake Shot grip. Would you recommend imitating that? If not, why is that? His shot is awe-inspiring, isn't it?

Is it more clear now?

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[foozkillah]

I'm sorry for having misphrased that. Of course these guys are our role models. What I meant is that you can't watch them executing a certain technique successfully and conclude that this is something you should practice as well. Some things work for them because they are super players, but they wouldn't work for any of us. Watch the video: Rico effortlessly destroys a German Pro Master on his home table with a completely crazy offensive series. Should one assume that one could be successful oneself using this series? I don't think so. Should one conclude that practicing ball control is a good thing because Rico benefits so strongly from his supreme control? Definitely.

As in any sport or game of skill, you could do worse to imitate (at least at first)
those proven to be world-beaters at the very top of that sport or game.  YOU DISAGREE?

No. But imitating them should be done consistently. Trying to execute a technique like these guys do it is not enough. You have to imitate their practice routines as well. And sometimes even that will not suffice. You should also imitate their having started to play Foosball at the age of seven.

I'll give you a more prominent and obvious example: Tony's Snake Shot grip. Would you recommend imitating that? If not, why is that? His shot is awe-inspiring, isn't it?

Is it more clear now?

Yes, I've been familiar with Tony's maximum handle area coverage with his rollover grip since 2001-2002, when he battled my buddy Adam for first Am Worlds Sgls (Adam won that and the table) and the next year for Exp Worlds Sgls (Tony won that and the table and they both got bumped to Pro after that).

I use it too... And I' have no problems showing it for anyone with visions of touring at the highest level, who has thinner or slimmer forearms and wrists.. compared to Billy's or Rob's or Terry Moore's... who have "Popeye the Sailor" cartoon forearm widths, especially wrists, and extra musculature.  The only thing I'd add is extra padding on both the handle and the forearm.  This is to protect the parts where the bone and tendons are more exposed to trauma.  But THE INTRINSIC THEORY ON WHY IT HAS ITS ADVANTAGES ARE STILL THERE, I've taught several rookies in 3 states to snake that way, AND I've also taught a lot of others the more common vertical rollover with full extension to the fingertips.
;
And I completely disagree.. you can watch Tony or Rico or Billy completely take an opponent's strength and dismantle them with unorthodox or pickup shots... but not many would take an exhibition game by Roger Federer or Djoko or Nadal vs an amateur as a clinical demo on proper technique?  No novice (with any hope of getting better) would take a "bush league" game by an overwhelmingly superior world class player or team over a local or even semipro team?  Wouldn't you say these fancy shooting games by Rico are the very small minority of his matches? prolly less than 1% online?
;
First of all, I myself, at least personally, try to refrain from INSULTING the intelligence of interested learners by even assuming they'd be mentally incapacitated enough to see a game or two like that as a prime example of their techniques.  "Duhhhh... I've seen maybe 3-4 dozen Rico vids on Youtube, same with Spredey and Billy and Todd and Jallalou.." HMMMMMMMMM, "But I saw that one really cool vid with the crazy shots, and that's what I'm basing my game on from now on!"  If there are dolts like that, then forget them.. they're of no use to themselves, to us as future co-foosers, and should go back to their combination underwater Russian poker and pastry cooking communities on Yahoogroups.
;
Sure they can copy the unorthodox shots, too! As Pickup and Fun shots, like most HUMANS DO!  Those shots are great fun shots that still also require better eye hand coordination and concentration!  Which are still good, even for practice, after doing 200 or so shots or passes of the mundane variety.
;
and no, nothing is clearer now, but I'm beginning to worry about you... 

 

[thebodygroove]

Well, Killah, I don't think our opinions are as far apart as it seems. Maybe I have just encountered more of those dolts you refer to. As to Tony's grip: If my memory serves me right, he once said in an interview that it felt good for him when he was learning the Snake as a grade school kid and just stuck with it. I still think it would be more advisable to apply the maximum-handle-area-grip at a less extreme angle instead of placing your forearm UNDER the handle like Tony does it - but we're already getting into quite subtle nuances here...

So there's no need to worry about me.

No novice (with any hope of getting better) would take a "bush league" game by an overwhelmingly superior world class player or team over a local or even semipro team?  Wouldn't you say these fancy shooting games by Rico are the very small minority of his matches? prolly less than 1% online?

I hope you are not referring to Rico's match against Ruben Heinrich with this statement. Ruben is one of the strongest players on that table. The video just illustrates what an alien Rico is...


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