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Pull kicker videos? Pull kicking advice?

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Pull kicker videos? Pull kicking advice?
« on: August 17, 2011, 02:20:35 PM »
Where can I find some good footage of legendary pull kickers? Free on the internet would be preferred - but if there are some I'd need to buy, I can deal with that.  ;)

Any advice on pull kicking? Dead bar seems impossible to hit. I've tried swiping across with the near man and can hit it like that, but not consistently. I can hit long, but its a slight spray so it hits the dead barred man.

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Pull kicker videos? Pull kicking advice?
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2011, 03:53:06 AM »
Dead bar is the same with a PK or a Pull or a pullside rollover. It's just the maximum square long.
It can actually spray just a bit and still hit the corner.  The obvious test is to leave a ball in front
of the long hole and practice hitting it in straight.  Once you learn how to hit the ball square and
hard, you experiment with different takeoffs..  The ball will roll, of course, towards you as you
pull with your 33 or far 3bar figure.  The trick is to brush back enough as you pull so that more
sidespin is added, instead of just the normal straightline roll towards you. The more sidespin
you can generate (usually by increasing the brushback on your takeoff) the less you have to work
to square off the ball once it gets in front of the long hole.
Hitting that ball square is a mix of sidespin on the ball, and how long you can keep the 32, or
middle 3bar figure, going through the ball when you shoot.  If you can get your timing down so
you "scoop" the ball as you fire.. that should straighten out the shot.  As for a consistent long,
you just have to practice the pitch or takeoff and firing until your body memory imprints it into
your hand, wrist, forearm and upper arm motion. Could be hundreds of shots, could be 1000's.

Re: Pull kicker videos? Pull kicking advice?
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2011, 01:34:03 PM »
I have far more success hitting the dead bar with a pull shot or even the euro-pin I just learned. I especially am finding it easy to hit the dead bar on the push side with the euro because the pulling motion on the cut back feels so natural (as opposed to pushing on the cut back).
I find it easier to "scoop" the ball, as you say, when I'm pitching it with the same man. I'm using a very controlled open hand hit, which I've heard compared to a "slap shot" in hockey. Because the hit is so much quicker than if I used a closed hand shot, maybe there isn't enough time for the scooping - so I end up trying to "chip" it back the other direction.

I'll try putting more side spin on it, too. :) The problem I see with the pull kick is that you start so far from the goal, and it seems that short and mid will be guarded most of the time. I can beat people to long and even mid if they're starting close to me, but it seems like long is the go-to spot for this shot. I was thinking about using a "dead ball" shot and a dink in conjunction with the pull kick. I'm not even sure if the "dead ball" is worthwhile at all; I saw it on a bad youtube clip and figured it'd be good to fake the long pull kick and have the ball bounce back off of 32 to 33 for the 1 dot hole. Now that I think about it though, since your 3 bar is dead there's no room for cutting it back to square it. I should probably just forget about this shot. Haha.

The dink and fakey dinks to PK seem like a good compliment, though. Perhaps only if the goalie is attempting to use a racing defense on your PK. Are PKs often used in a series like this? Which shots compliment it?

I'm at a crossroad right now between choosing the euro-pin or the PK. I'll be putting in about 20 hours a week practice on one of these. I need to choose quickly so I can get my shot down asap. :)

As far as practice goes, what I've been doing is this: I have a bowl of balls sitting next to my 3-rod. I toss one (with some decent force) down to my 5-bar to get used to picking up loose balls. I then tic tac up and down through my 5 bar until I get to the near side. I tic tac between the 51 and 52 and do a brush pass wall/lane (uphill). If I fail the pass I start over again at the 5. If pass is successful, I set it up in front pin. I have the goalies set up with 1 finger distance from dead bar with a rod lock and I alternate between doing a pull side or push side euro shot. If I fail the shot, I keep attempting it until I get it. Then I start back at the 5bar - rinse, repeat.

Any suggestions on how I could improve my solo training routine? I try to do things slowly at first and have them gradually ramp up to combat speed after about an hour.

Offline PatRyan

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Re: Pull kicker videos? Pull kicking advice?
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2011, 02:07:08 PM »
Suggestion for practice...Do what you are doing, only if you miss the shot, do not attempt the shot again, Start over with the ball at the five.  And make sure you keep within 10 seconds on the 5 bar possesion.  You only get to attempt the shot if you complete the pass from the 5 to the 3.  If you do not shoot well, you will get lots of 5 bar practice.  If you shoot 100%, the best you can do is split practice time between your 5 and your 3 50/50.


Offline foozkillah

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Re: Pull kicker videos? Pull kicking advice?
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2011, 07:29:51 PM »
I have far more success hitting the dead bar with a pull shot or even the euro-pin I just learned. I especially am finding it easy to hit the dead bar on the push side with the euro because the pulling motion on the cut back feels so natural (as opposed to pushing on the cut back).
;
That's exactly what most rollover/snake shooters in the US also experience when learning the push side shot.. Squaring it off is very natural because it straightens out the hand/wrist/forearm structure and ends with natural tension, but not too much.  Most rollover/snake shooters develop a pretty square push side shot and can often practice it to deadbar much more quickly.  On the pull side, they tend to do either of two things:
1. just move it over ("pitch" it over) less and just do a relatively square shot at deadbar between the 3/4 to the long (nearest the shooter). or ...
2. Move it over actually past deadbar (deadsquare position facing the long hole) and consciously stroke it back to square off the ball (recoil).
;
Quote from: snafu
I find it easier to "scoop" the ball, as you say, when I'm pitching it with the same man. I'm using a very controlled open hand hit, which I've heard compared to a "slap shot" in hockey. Because the hit is so much quicker than if I used a closed hand shot, maybe there isn't enough time for the scooping - so I end up trying to "chip" it back the other direction.
;
As you practice your Europin shot (or rollover/snake if you ever get into that) you should notice that as you laterally roll, or "pitch," your shot at takeoff...
> the more parallel the motion the ball rolls in relation to the rods,:
1. The time to the release or firing point is physically shorter, so it's faster.
2. The point that far forward when the 3bar figure's toe hits it creates tremendous topspin, & less power.
3. There is hardly any scoop and it turns into an accelerating "slap shot" with high topspin.
4. There is less tolerance for hitting the ball square into the hole and return/recoils are minimized.
> the more you roll the ball back towards you and under the rod:
1. The time to the release/firing point is at an angle and physically longer.
2. The closer the ball to being almost halfway back under the rod, the more a "scoop" is generated.
3. This slower stroke that keeps the 3bar figure's toe longer on the ball squares off the shot better.
4. More power can be generated with less topspin as the scoop transfers more momentum to the ball.
5. More control can also be generated with this type of release, allowing easier square shots.
6. This control can also be used to practice angled or sprayed shots, too, of course.
;
Quote from: snafu
I'll try putting more side spin on it, too. :) The problem I see with the pull kick is that you start so far from the goal, and it seems that short and mid will be guarded most of the time. I can beat people to long and even mid if they're starting close to me, but it seems like long is the go-to spot for this shot. I was thinking about using a "dead ball" shot and a dink in conjunction with the pull kick. I'm not even sure if the "dead ball" is worthwhile at all; I saw it on a bad youtube clip and figured it'd be good to fake the long pull kick and have the ball bounce back off of 32 to 33 for the 1 dot hole. Now that I think about it though, since your 3 bar is dead there's no room for cutting it back to square it. I should probably just forget about this shot. Haha.
;
Incorporating a dink, banks, or any offspeed variation is de rigeur with all pushkicks and pullkicks. This keeps the defense honest, for one thing, and takes major advantage of being able to fire from pretty much the length and breadth of the whole table width.  And don't forget that there will prolly always be a defender who can outrace you no matter how fast you "pitch", at least for that moment, and at least for that game on that day. Usually when you're fighting to get into the finals or into the money round of an event.  It just works out that way.  Anyone familiar with the American Wild West gunslinger tradition is very familiar with this: "There is always someone faster on the quickdraw, and when you meet him, that's the day you die.."
;
As for your deadball shot, I've seen the reverse or mirror image of that shot thousands of times, but from a pushkick.  One variation is to have the slow pushkick to the 32, which "stunts" at the long and bounces the ball back to the 31, which shoots a relative straight shot into the near hole.  The much more common variation, however is to shoot a pretty quick pushkick from 31 to 32 which also "stunts" at the long and bounces back the ball, BUT THE SHOOTER WAITS TILL ITS JUST PAST THE NEAR HOLE... and then comes in with the 31 to shoot a very natural slight angle into the near hole, or perhaps even a diagonal to the middle or far hole.  I've seen this variation on the pullkicks, too, of course, since this variation doesn't fight or go against the bar being 'dead."
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Quote from: snafu
The dink and fakey dinks to PK seem like a good compliment, though. Perhaps only if the goalie is attempting to use a racing defense on your PK. Are PKs often used in a series like this? Which shots compliment it?
Incorporating additional variations to any shot from the same takeoff are almost required to have an effective "kill" shot, and exactly for the Wild West reasons I described above.  Never be predictable and one-minded with a screaming long.  For another reason.. continuously using a rocketfast lateral shot is also tiring, and this will bite you viciously the better you get, and the more you advance in a league or tournament. Non-single figure shots like push kicks and pull kicks definitely take more of a toll, energy-wise, concentration-wise and consistency wise (they're automatically more complex than single figure shots like pushes, pulls, Europins or rollover/snakes)...  Unless you're inhuman and almost robotic.  But you have to be sure you're one of those... and that only comes with a lot of insane practice and tourney regimens.
;
Quote from: snafu
I'm at a crossroad right now between choosing the euro-pin or the PK. I'll be putting in about 20 hours a week practice on one of these. I need to choose quickly so I can get my shot down asap. :)

As far as practice goes, what I've been doing is this: I have a bowl of balls sitting next to my 3-rod. I toss one (with some decent force) down to my 5-bar to get used to picking up loose balls. I then tic tac up and down through my 5 bar until I get to the near side. I tic tac between the 51 and 52 and do a brush pass wall/lane (uphill). If I fail the pass I start over again at the 5. If pass is successful, I set it up in front pin. I have the goalies set up with 1 finger distance from dead bar with a rod lock and I alternate between doing a pull side or push side euro shot. If I fail the shot, I keep attempting it until I get it. Then I start back at the 5bar - rinse, repeat.

Any suggestions on how I could improve my solo training routine? I try to do things slowly at first and have them gradually ramp up to combat speed after about an hour.
;
Ohh. that'll get you there.. nice dedicated regimen!  And you can look at all professional players in field soccer, ATP tennis players, basketball and hockey players, pro or national.  The top players don't have one kill shot, they have several.  And they continuously work to perfect their kill shots, all of them, while also continuously working on those shots that they are relatively weak on.  Perfect your strengths (never just one..) and work to minimize your weak points or weak shots..

Offline crazy8

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Re: Pull kicker videos? Pull kicking advice?
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2011, 12:44:21 PM »
Quote
The problem I see with the pull kick is that you start so far from the goal,

I you watch some of the remaining push-kickers, you'll see that many (not all) do not start all the way to the wall.  Instead they start at the box - already in dink position.  Something to think about.

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Pull kicker videos? Pull kicking advice?
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2011, 12:32:04 PM »
if you are willing to take on the PK or Europin which are shots which take a signficant long term practice investment, you should choose a backpin since it is the best shot on the table...I just never recommend it to new players or this current generation because they don't have the patients to put in the time to learn it the right way and you don't get the immediate gradification you get from other shots....delayed gradification is a lost discipline for most

are you saying you are going to put in 20 hours a week just on your shot or 20 hours alltogether?  how old are you, how long have you been playing, and what is your ultimate goal...why are you dedicating this much time?  why the PK or Euro as opposed to the pull or RO which are the proven winning shots?  r you playing Tor exclusively more or less?

Re: Pull kicker videos? Pull kicking advice?
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2011, 01:42:18 PM »
As I practice the europin shot more and more, I'm finding that the quicker I pitch the ball laterally the less force I hit it with because I have less time to move ahead of the ball and *** my man back far enough to hit it powerfully. Should I practice a bit slower until it becomes second nature, and then I can speed up the pitch and I won't lose power?
I've had my goalies set up at 1/2 an index finger from deadbar the past week and can hit the pull side 8/10, but like I said, I'd like to be able to hit the ball a little harder with a fast pitch. I've got the goalie rod set up at 1/2 finger on the push side, but I don't practice it as often because it already feels natural (I'm forcing myself to do the side that I'm less comfortable with).

I'm definitely leaning toward sticking with the Euro-pin. I feel like starting from the middle of the goal is superior to starting at one side and moving to the other. And as for the back pin, I've been using back pin push and pull shots from 2 bar for quite a while. My biggest issue with it, though, is that I can't shoot the straight like I can with a front pin. I play on a Fireball that has Tornado men and rods on it. I will be getting the Fireball rods and men when the rods come back in stock. I'll switch between the two so that I can get practice on both.

I've been improving in leaps and bounds on my 5 bar. I'm sure I'll plateau soon. When I came back to foosball a few months ago, my 5 bar was nonexistant. I played for 2 years in middle school (obsessively), but always just shot from the 5. I definitely prefer stick passing to brush passing so far. I'm not sure if I want to do passing from tic tac'ing the ball or from a stop, like a quick push kick from the 52 to 51; I believe Pappas passes like this sometimes. Thoughts?

I played on an old worn down Tornado in a bar the other night and I absolutely could not perform the Europin. I couldn't move the rod fast enough in front of the ball and get in a position to fire it. Then I started using the PK. I got some really hard hitting goals with it, but my % couldn't have been better than 30% or so. Perhaps I needed to work in more dinks to get them afraid of racing me? Later in the night, I abandoned the PK and went back to my pull. It took a few games to find my rhythm, but when I did I was scoring 80% or so. Not sure why, but my pull was jarring the table pretty badly (it ended up being crooked after a few games of doing my pull).

So why not stick with the pull? I hate the way it makes my wrist/arm feel after a while. I feel like I can practice the PK and Euro-pin forever (comparatively) without having my arm get tired. The rollover feels unnatural to me. I don't like that I'm not ready for a quick rebound after a blocked shot. Watching Collignon, I love that he can grab the ball in a front pin directly off a rebound and take another quick shot.

20 hours a week training by myself, which is a combination of 5 bar and 3 bar. I'm 26. I played for 2-3 years when I was younger. My shots were pull kicks, push kicks and dinks mostly from the 33 man. My dad taught me how to play, and he played in the early 80s. My goal is to become competitive in tournaments ASAP. After having to quit Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, which I was very competitive at, I need another "sport" to be competitive in. I'd like to be able to play the "greats" and hold my own. I don't expect to win - I just would like the honor of playing them while not being an easy "W." I like to take the road less traveled. For example, in BJJ I used a position called the "turtle" very often, which is traditionally looked at as a disadvantageous position. However, I could use this position offensively and submit people from it. It was difficult for people to deal with this strategy because they weren't used to seeing it. The time it takes them to learn how to beat it, to adjust, I've already won. I don't want to be another cookie cutter player, I'd rather do something less common and excel at it - be known for it. For that reason, the back pin is actually very enticing. But couldn't they just leave mid open and concentrate on blocking the short/long holes?




Offline foozkillah

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Re: Pull kicker videos? Pull kicking advice?
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2011, 05:03:03 PM »
As I practice the europin shot more and more, I'm finding that the quicker I pitch the ball laterally the less force I hit it with because I have less time to move ahead of the ball and BAD WORD FILTER my man back far enough to hit it powerfully. Should I practice a bit slower until it becomes second nature, and then I can speed up the pitch and I won't lose power?
I've had my goalies set up at 1/2 an index finger from deadbar the past week and can hit the pull side 8/10, but like I said, I'd like to be able to hit the ball a little harder with a fast pitch. I've got the goalie rod set up at 1/2 finger on the push side, but I don't practice it as often because it already feels natural (I'm forcing myself to do the side that I'm less comfortable with).
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The faster the pitch, the more energy you're storing in the ball,  making it move harder away from the goal. So of course unless you either {A} use more brush-back (outside to in) as you stroke through the ball, or {B} roll the ball on the pitch backwards towards your rod to have more of that "scoop" effect you already understand, or {C} learn to fire through the ball just that much faster, by making the ball go into the hole before it has a chance to angle off.  This is even more pronounced with either a Euro type front pin or a backpin, because all lateral motion is coupled into ball spin.  There is none of the skidding or sweeping/sliding along of the ball, that you see with really fast under=rod shots like the push, pull, push or pullkick, and the bump kicks.  The further you go, the harder the ball accelerates its spin.
;
If you really want to go laterally longer, then you have to incorporate one or more of the three squaring techniques above.  I recommend combining all three.
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Quote from: snafu
I'm definitely leaning toward sticking with the Euro-pin. I feel like starting from the middle of the goal is superior to starting at one side and moving to the other. And as for the back pin, I've been using back pin push and pull shots from 2 bar for quite a while. My biggest issue with it, though, is that I can't shoot the straight like I can with a front pin. I play on a Fireball that has Tornado men and rods on it. I will be getting the Fireball rods and men when the rods come back in stock. I'll switch between the two so that I can get practice on both.
;
I agree that the frontpin nature of both the Euro and the rollover have the added advantage of being that much closer to the goal line than under-rod or backpinned shots.  Much less time & distance for the ball to angle away from the target point, especially if you have problems cranking the shot straight and hard enough to overcome the outward momentum of a longer/faster pitch.  That might also be more related to how you stroke or hit through the ball, as with "addressing" the golf ball and the swing through it.  A simple technique adjustment may bypass that problem.
;
But I disagree with the backpin not amenable to a straight.  If you have watched Rico or Jamal on shooting and note their top-echelon level "dribbling" of the ball during shot-making, it is pretty much the same philosophy as that of backpin shooters... they "walk" the ball often and go to a spot where they only need 1-1 1/2 inch pitch OR LESS on either side to "pick" the hole. Of course they have the "long" pitch, incl. that from a standstill central position, sometimes even from either corner of the goal to the other, but that's more like an "F' You!" shot displaying their skill level.  Much like cranking an extreme deadbar pull or pull kick, even if the defender doesn't move anywhere near past the split hole, or halfway.
;
With a backpin, yes the instant straight isn't there, but you can certainly "work" the ball forward enough, hiding it all the while with your side to side rolling or dribbling, to get the straight shot off.  And if you just wish to stay centered and be able to go deadbar long to either side with either your Euro or backpin, that would take immense amounts of discipline and training. Good luck to you on that, because yes, it wouldn't hurt to learn it, but I would stress the shorter "dribbling and picking a hole" philosophy before mastering end-to-end longs, leaving most of that for once a game, even once a match, or mostly for pickup games.  Or ... if that's all they give you, which can happen with matches at or above expert/semi-pro level.
;
Quote from: snafu
I've been improving in leaps and bounds on my 5 bar. I'm sure I'll plateau soon. When I came back to foosball a few months ago, my 5 bar was nonexistant. I played for 2 years in middle school (obsessively), but always just shot from the 5. I definitely prefer stick passing to brush passing so far. I'm not sure if I want to do passing from tic tac'ing the ball or from a stop, like a quick push kick from the 52 to 51; I believe Pappas passes like this sometimes. Thoughts?
;
Having shot from the 5 in your early years shouldn't hurt you.  And since you do like stick or lane-passing, then I'd just recommend relearning your shots to aim at and catch at your 3bar.  Get as many series as you can down pat, whether tic tac'ing or from a set standstill position.  Get at least two options on whichever series you end up preferring. No matter how well you execute most series, someone will always either know, or luck into blocking a simple or one-track series consistently.
;
Quote from: snafu
I played on an old worn down Tornado in a bar the other night and I absolutely could not perform the Europin. I couldn't move the rod fast enough in front of the ball and get in a position to fire it. Then I started using the PK. I got some really hard hitting goals with it, but my % couldn't have been better than 30% or so. Perhaps I needed to work in more dinks to get them afraid of racing me? Later in the night, I abandoned the PK and went back to my pull. It took a few games to find my rhythm, but when I did I was scoring 80% or so. Not sure why, but my pull was jarring the table pretty badly (it ended up being crooked after a few games of doing my pull).

So why not stick with the pull? I hate the way it makes my wrist/arm feel after a while. I feel like I can practice the PK and Euro-pin forever (comparatively) without having my arm get tired. The rollover feels unnatural to me. I don't like that I'm not ready for a quick rebound after a blocked shot. Watching Collignon, I love that he can grab the ball in a front pin directly off a rebound and take another quick shot.
;
I'd say, many top pullshooters over the multiple decades (NOT JUST YEARS MIND YOU) have consistently used their pull to consistently shoot hard, soft, picking and offspeed shots.. THAT'S THE CLUE, DUHHHHH... Because there're hundreds of them in their 40's and 50's with excellent pulls, perhaps thousands...  Sore fingers, palm, wrist, forearm, upper-arm? Either they got the magic potion when they were 16years old or so, or they basically experimented, watched others (today you even have free videos on Youtube and such) and figured out A TECHNIQUE THAT WORKS FOR THEIR PULL on how to do really strong hard and square pulls.  They figured it out.  I'm sure you can, too, if you wish to have a good pull.;
I remember years ago, thinking I had a good pull, despite the soreness and wear and tear... then I happened to play nets for PM Tom Yore and observed several others like Terry Rue, Rick Ino, etc.. with pulls.. I remembered their grips, arm configuration, and stances, etc..  tried several of them and figured out which I could use to change or incorporate... AND MENTALLY KICKED MYSELF FOR NOT FIGURING IT OUT SOONER AND SAVING MYSELF SO MUCH PAIN AND MISERY AND MISSED OPPORTUNITIES.  Remember... it is MUCH EASIER to practice correct technique than correct luck.  No jarring the table, even with extreme longs to squeezing the bushing to max, no RECOIL for RETARDS, none of that crap.  So get a clue.
;
Quote from: snafu
20 hours a week training by myself, which is a combination of 5 bar and 3 bar. I'm 26. I played for 2-3 years when I was younger. My shots were pull kicks, push kicks and dinks mostly from the 33 man. My dad taught me how to play, and he played in the early 80s. My goal is to become competitive in tournaments ASAP. After having to quit Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, which I was very competitive at, I need another "sport" to be competitive in. I'd like to be able to play the "greats" and hold my own. I don't expect to win - I just would like the honor of playing them while not being an easy "W." I like to take the road less traveled. For example, in BJJ I used a position called the "turtle" very often, which is traditionally looked at as a disadvantageous position. However, I could use this position offensively and submit people from it. It was difficult for people to deal with this strategy because they weren't used to seeing it. The time it takes them to learn how to beat it, to adjust, I've already won. I don't want to be another cookie cutter player, I'd rather do something less common and excel at it - be known for it. For that reason, the back pin is actually very enticing. But couldn't they just leave mid open and concentrate on blocking the short/long holes?
;
I'm all for that... but learn to dribble and pick short holes, work the straights, on both your backpin and Euro.  While all the while still learning the STFU or "F'You!"hard longs or deadbars.  And for both your backpin and Euro, you could always try the bank-shooting series from different spots, if you wish to be different and never bored.

Offline bbtuna

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Re: Pull kicker videos? Pull kicking advice?
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2011, 12:09:09 PM »
foozkilla, thanks for trying to support the backpin but step aside and let a real BP shooter tell the truth

there are 3 myths of the BP
Myth 1 - You can't shoot middle
Myth 2 - The ball is further from the goal
Myth 3 - Lateral speed is slow

I am going to give short answer to these right now but will provide something more significant later

Myth 1 - you can do the sneak the ball down while dribbling thing that FK talks about but in over 10 years of shooting it competitively I haven't done this more than a couple times because it isn't needed.  Not counting counter step fakes or reverses there are two main ways to deal with straights...one is I can hit a "straight" by moving the ball about 3/4-1 inch and when I strike it I push back a little and the ball will hit that "straight hole". 

The other and most important and unique feature of the BP is that you have pin point control of brushing a ball back either off the push or pull.  It looks like you are shooting a long hole and you move the ball 1-1 1/2 inches either direction and cut the ball back.  Think of being able to pin a ball on the 5 bar and doing a brush off that and think of how accurate and deadly that could be but instead you get to do this with your right hand on the 3 bar. 

Many many many people have tried sticking guys in the long hole on me thinking that is the answer and it isn't long before they realize I can shoot middle.  My friends who know me well laugh when they see that and say, "Yea, he can't shoot middle" he, he, he  Trust me when I tell you, middle is THE STRENGHT of the backpin not the weakness....people who know me well go out of there way to find ways to take middles a way.

Myth 2 - Ball is further from the goal...do the math...if you are shooting a euro pin which means you are using a palm roll...you have to move the man back swing before you strike the ball correct?  most backswings are 180 degress above center, in other words the man swings back until the head is upside down to the table surface...the arc of the man has to move back from that starting place all the way to upside down and back before the man hits the ball...on the rollover, the man has to go around 359 degrees before striking the ball.

with the backpin, I have almost zero backswing...starting out you will have more and lift the man off the ball but even then, it isn't nearly as high as a typical palm roll (I have watched even Fred in slow motion and his goes that far back)...for me, I come off the ball maybe 1/8 of an inch and strike the ball with as much power as any shot you have ever seen.

Myth 3 Lateral speed is slower....there is some truth to this Myth...it is harder to start your shot and therefore get the lateral speed you see on a pull or euro pin but it can be managed so that it is not a liability.  When I was young, my lateral speed was as good as any shot I saw at the time and was unraceable...now I am older so it has slowed but its fast enough still to score on anyone.

the BP isn't about blinding speed and power although you can have that, it is about pin point control, the ability to reverse in a thousand ways, and movement I call a pound fake.  It is the umbelivable control and options dribbling the ball and then there are all the options using the 31 and 33 men shorts, dinks, angles, kicks, banks, literally every shot that can be done on the table can be set up off the Backpin...

my email is Backpinrules...this is because there is no shot that can do more and do more more accurately...the ability to cut back push or pull from 1/2 inch move up to a long cut back makes this the best shot on the table....it has been my dream that someone with vision off the chain skills, like Spree or Billy, would comitt themselves to the BP from youth and you would see what could be done and it would win majors and the face of foosball would change forever

maybe you are that person...if you want original and creative, there is nothing like the BP but I can tell you it takes a major committment and you have to push through early barriers that will frustrate you but the pay off is off the hook

look for more on the Myths and the BP from me soon...peace out

backpinrules!!!

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Pull kicker videos? Pull kicking advice?
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2011, 02:38:14 PM »
Oh yeah, BBT ?  ;D
I know the old school backpin, which I used to win my Coors Light sponsored ISU college tourney, before I went with my schoolmates to the Wintergarden Regionals at U of Mankato in Mankato MN (met friends I still have all those decades later) and happened to go to town and meet a guy named Doug who told me where they played and I met his buddy, Jim, there... whom everyone called the Wiz... he showed me something about shooting a pull, which really really started my not shooting backpins any more.
As for the "dribble and short pitch to either side or straight.." One of the best examples streamed this year of a real PM and a REAL BACKPIN shooter named Tracy playing against another Texan, David Vick.   TMac did it again online at some later streamed tournament..  A real pleasure to watch.
There's has to be a reason PM's who do the higher percentage, less stress "short pick" style.  Also why Euro shooters and many top rollover shooters do the "dance n lance"...

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Pull kicker videos? Pull kicking advice?
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2011, 02:43:45 PM »
There is a guy, Craig, in Jim Dumas' So Florida community, who when he does show up, has a snap palmroll backpin series (from the 3bar and the 2bar)... He does the standard back n forth backpin "shake", but he shoots with a really hellbent all-or-nothing open hand palmroll.. and that's whether or not he's "pickin' " a middle hole, a straight, or going 7 on the dead bar... it's a real riot to watch.. Can't believe how he can consistently hit  longs with that fast a pitch with his palm roll... Really eerie sometimes.. another treat from the the old days...

Offline bbtuna

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  • TS, Dynamo, Tornado, Warrior, & Fireball
Re: Pull kicker videos? Pull kicking advice?
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2011, 03:03:18 PM »
there is a BP shooter in MI who does a palm roll...I didn't believe it could be done well but I played with it a while and found that if I committed to it I could do it but finesse shorts are impossible with a palm roll because you can't stay with the ball and "brush" it...

its one thing to shoot a shot for a while and another to committ to it full time...i won my first ever tournament shooting a push shot but that doesn't make me an expert...

bottom line is, the BP is the best shot on the table and some day it will be proven and if Fireball takes hold, it will be sooner than later....Tornado is okay, I have learned to do everything I want to and some things are actually special but the Fireball might as well have been designed specifically for the BP...it is insane how good it is, how natural

don't be throwing iconic names at me to bolster your opinions, no one in the world knows more about a BP than I do...NO ONE...PERIOD!  You can drop my name when you talk to your friends in FL and tell them all you know about a BP and how you rub shoulders with the premiere BPinner in the history of foosball...Fury, Wiz, Tracy, Fred, Billy, Spree, Bbtuna...rolls off your tongue so naturally

Offline foozkillah

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Re: Pull kicker videos? Pull kicking advice?
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2011, 09:38:56 PM »
.......... don't be throwing iconic names at me to bolster your opinions, no one in the world knows more about a BP than I do...NO ONE...PERIOD!  You can drop my name when you talk to your friends in FL and tell them all you know about a BP and how you rub shoulders with the premiere BPinner in the history of foosball...Fury, Wiz, Tracy, Fred, Billy, Spree, Bbtuna...rolls off your tongue so naturally ..
;
Fury, Wiz, TMac, Papz, Spredey, BBTUNA ... WOT !?  :o ;D ::)
;;
I gotta see this C.D. B.P. one of these days... lemme ask Ronnie bout ur BPinner special!
;;
Watch out world! Will BackSqueezies really rule again!??
I gotta show you my own BP special...  hard hard hard BP on the 33 for a BP Deadbar Pullkick ... see if you can race this slow thang...  you're gonna have to put a chinstrap on so you don't hurt y'self when yer jaw starts lookin' fer linoleum .....
;
 :P :P :P
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 09:40:43 PM by foozkillah »

Re: Pull kicker videos? Pull kicking advice?
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2011, 10:43:08 PM »
there is a BP shooter in MI who does a palm roll...I didn't believe it could be done well but I played with it a while and found that if I committed to it I could do it but finesse shorts are impossible with a palm roll because you can't stay with the ball and "brush" it...

its one thing to shoot a shot for a while and another to committ to it full time...i won my first ever tournament shooting a push shot but that doesn't make me an expert...

bottom line is, the BP is the best shot on the table and some day it will be proven and if Fireball takes hold, it will be sooner than later....Tornado is okay, I have learned to do everything I want to and some things are actually special but the Fireball might as well have been designed specifically for the BP...it is insane how good it is, how natural

don't be throwing iconic names at me to bolster your opinions, no one in the world knows more about a BP than I do...NO ONE...PERIOD!  You can drop my name when you talk to your friends in FL and tell them all you know about a BP and how you rub shoulders with the premiere BPinner in the history of foosball...Fury, Wiz, Tracy, Fred, Billy, Spree, Bbtuna...rolls off your tongue so naturally

Can you teach me the fundamentals of the back pin? I'd rather not just try to figure it out and practice it 200 hours before I realize I'm learning it wrong :)
Perhaps a youtube video? We could video chat? I have a tripod and digi camera set up aimed at my 3 bar right now so I can record my shots and you can give me feedback.

I'm in San Diego, so if you're ever in the area you could stop by and give me some pointers and I could take you out to eat or to a local tournament or something. I'm planning on being at the Western Open Fireball tourney in Portland Sept30-Oct2.

Will post more later, at school right now. ><