Topic: What ever happened to Warrior tables?

[SilentSam]

It was the model most used in the IFP tour, solid rods, yellow and red men, white side strips. I know that the men eventually changed design a little and became red and blue, and that the side strips changed to dark green, but I believe that the cabinet and rods never changed, so these issues will most likely arise after more play.

[big al]

why did your table warp, where do you keep it?..what part of the table split..you mean on its own from hard play??...you mentioned the new Warrior, what is the difference compared to the old...do you know what year you got your table....new or used...i know i know whats up with all the questions....hey if i cant afford to get a fireball yet, i need to make sure i avoid all these problems...thx!

[Buckshot]

I never played on Warrior and I had the same problem garabdorje commented on above, which is they never update their webpage so I gave up trying to talk to them and maybe buy a table. However, what I really want to comment on is what bbtuna said about Fireball, that it is without a doubt the BEST table ever for a backpin.  Bless you young man, whoever you are. I've never played a Fireball table, but that comment has me fired up to get one someday. My game had it's flaws, mainly my passing which sucked, but I can say with all humility that I had one of the best backpin shots I've ever seen, and I've been around. I burned out on foos in 1992 after being obsessed with the game for 20 years(anyone reading this post knows what that's like!) and walked away. On they rare occasions I actually run into a table it is invariably a Tornado, which is unbackpinnable. Sorry people, I know some of you really like that brand, but honestly you couldn't give me a Tornado table. Now that I know there is a REAL backpin table out there I'm remembering how much I loved to drive people nuts with my deadman on both sides and a split that was downright scary. All I have to do now is actually find one. Here in Oklahoma foosball is apparently dead. I've lived here about a year and a half and I haven't seen a single table. I read online that there are a couple tables in Tulsa, but it's not worth driving 100 miles to play on a table I don't like. Anyway, thanks to garabdorje for getting me all excited about my old passion.   

[SilentSam]

I'll link some youtube videos to show you the generations.

Newest gen Warrior: http://www.youtube.com/user/roger649?blend=3&ob=5#p/u/0/AmyMWDM4vdQ
Most common Warrior: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGahf6H3GJs - This is also the model I own, circa 2008 I think
Earliest Warrior: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTyuujs8Eyk&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLFB9543CDBC03D482 - This one had the most issues, completely unlike the other models. I've never played on this one though.

My table warped because of my pullshot, brush passes, pin, anything that applied downward pressure on the play surface. My pull is set back pretty far (as all good closed handed pulls are at the release point) which creates more force on the playfield, hence the warpage. Also, when I walk the ball using my pin, I'm pretty aggressive, so that added to the warpage. The area between the 2 bars and the 3 bars is especially warped, since both my long push and my long pull from the 2 tended to stub a lot at first, which was strenuous on the table, combined win the constant pinning from the 3.

There are two areas on the table that split. One was a split the full length of the sidewall (ie: if you removed the top laminate on the sidewall, you would see a crack running the length of it). The other was 2 cracks in the white laminate in the inside of the other sidewall, which warped the sidewall, and now causes funny bounces during a 5 bar series. I imagine that both of these were caused by trapping the ball against the sidewall during play, which really is a common occurrence.

My table was kept in a carpeted basement room, which had humidity regulated by a dehumidifier, so moisture should not have been the cause.

I bought my table used, but it was only used for one tournament. When I first set it up it was mint, and had no damage whatsoever. I lived with roommates, and had friends over all the time, so the table saw daily use, 50% of the time by tournament players, until April 2010.

The bottom line is if it sees consistent heavy use, it will break down. On the other hand, if the table had the same play characteristics, but was as sturdy as a Tornado Coin-op, I would pick that up in a second.

Re: Differences between a new Warrior and a Fireball
I've played on both, and like both equally, but they are definitely difference beasts. The Warrior has those solid 'roid rods, which cause you to really lace into your shots. The fireball I played on had the ultra light rods, which felt like they weren't even there (which really was a good thing). The ball we were using wasn't the one that Fireball released, but I'll describe the feel as best that I can. The ball felt heavier than a Tornado or Warrior ball, and felt more rubbery; faster than a Warrior ball but slower than a Tornado. My entire game transitioned to it after a minute of play, and I could tic tac on the 5 forever, which I could never do on Warrior, and have a hard time doing at pace on a Tornado.

[papafoos]

Buckshot, where in Oklahoma are you?  Maybe I can help you find some people to play.  I'm closer to Dallas than Tulsa but I still keep in  touch with some of the Tulsa crowd.  Oklahoma State will be at the Hard Rock in Tulsa the last weekend of October.  It's worth it just to watch.

[big al]

SilentSam, thanks for the imput...hopefully i wont run into the same problems...thx!

[bbtuna]

jagjiar-the idea that all tables are equal, regardless of your preference is not wise, it is ignorant and uniformed but politically correct....by taking that position, you are saying the $100 table from Walmart is the same as your garlando coin op and we both know that is just silly...or the entry level Tornado is the same as their coin op or even comparing all coin ops you couldn't say that

now by that, you are saying that the 7 one time ITSF recognizied coin op/top level models are all equally built you might have more of an arguement but still, just speaking about build quality, it is possible to make objective, verifiable comparrisions

now on the style of play they produce, this is entriely a matter of opinion...there is no telling a Bonizini player that their style of play is not as good or complete as Garlando or Tornado and the same can be said of Leonhart and Roberto Sport or other "not recognized" tables like Lehmacher

the style of play a person grows up on usually determines a person's bias toward one "style" verses another and that style is almost always associated to a particular table

I recognize the unique style that Bonzini and cork balls creates and can understand why people could learn to like that and why many of those same people would feel Tornado was like playing with a hard plastic ball on ice

however there are only one or two tables ever made which were made with the knowledge of tournament foosball and what can be done on a table (Leonhart and Fireball I believe)...Garlando and Bonzini were created long before touranment foosball was discovered and their "style" reflects the random build characteristics of the original designers...so what bbt, what does that mean?  It means that these tables and many others, have never been designed with the entire game and tournament history in mind and therefore have significant deficiencies/weaknesses/limits on what can be done on the table

this part isn't opinion, setting up inline shots like a pull, is nearly impossible on a Bonzini...can it be done?  Well, can a duck run? Yes, but it isn't built to run and it doesn't run well.  But, can a duck fly?  Hell yes and it can fly seamingly effortlessly and that is a Bonzini front toe shot.  These kind of limitations are objective fact but whether you think this is good, bad, or indifferent is opinion

[bbtuna]

EVERYONE has bias', mine are not to a specific table or style but in the end, they dictate a style probably.  But, here are my bias' for Tournament Foosball

1.  I believe the playfield should be completely flat and level (not including ramps if that method of corner ball retrieval is used)
2.  I think the ball should start completely round and stay completely round throught the length of any tournament play (what you do in your private life is your own business)
3.  I think the playfield should remain flat all the way to the side wall (i.e. 90 degree angle)- only exception is that it should have a design that doesn't leave dead balls stuck flat on the wall but whatever is used to keep this from occuring, should be as near to nothing as possible
4.  I think that all shots that can be done on a foosball table, should ALL be able to be done equally well...this means, set shots, front and back toe, rollover, tic tacs, banks, and ariels.  A flat surface and round ball take care of about half of this and the foot design takes care of the rest of it
5.  It should be possible to reach a ball anywhere on the table...I would compromise with ramps in the corners (I grew up on TS meaning ramps so go easy) but I think a "player" should be able to "dig" the ball out of the corner...I am open to design options, but right now, the only one I have seen that works is a 3 man goalie...I think ramps limit the playfield, limit offensive options significantly even after taking into consideration those it adds, and ramps increase set up time slowing the game down
6.  All men should be counter-balanced
7.  No telescoping rods
8.  Changable handles
9.  Walls should be hard and flat...they should not absorb the energy nor add to it
10.  Goal mouths should NEVER chip (personal bug a boo)
11.  playing surface color limitations
12.  Rods should start and stay true (no warping) throughout tournament play

Things I think should be implemented and may be in the future but are not yet "standards" for tournament play
1.  Ball diameter and weight - no limit on materials for now
2.  Field dimensions
3.  Goal dimensions
4.  Wall height
5.  Table surface and handle height standards
5.  Player foot dimensions & player weight - no limit on materials for now
6.  Rod standards...weight, length, & diamenter min/limitations...an industry standard...no limitations (for now) on materials used
7.  Player spacing on rods and foot height off the playing surface
8.  Minimum jar standard
9.  Minimum weight standard
10.  Score/time out/game/match "score counters" standards (as much variation as possible but something that would keep someone like Tornado from the hideous design currently used)

What I don't care about
1.  ball material or color
2.  playing surface material
3.  any other materials used to build the table
4.  how fast or slow the table is
5.  bearing design
5.  the name of the table

Wish to have - remember, this is all only about Tournament Foosball - all these should be designed as aftermarket add-ons
1.  Jar sensor like those used in pin ball machines that can be set to specific standards for each tournament...this is not an expensive (relatively speaking) add on that should be available to tournament table owners
2.  Electronic eye(s) for goal scored
3.  Auto sound and electronic score keeper (includes time outs, game count, match count, winner or loser bracket option for double elimination tournies)

[bbtuna]

your experience on Tornado is an extreme very rare example....I have been around literally hundreds of them many 15-20 years old and never seen any bearings "chip" from normal bar stuff in the first 10 years or so...I have seen some old negelected and abused bar tables have bearings go bad but even in those circumstances, its rare...the design is so simple, its hard to break them and can't imagine how you managed to get one chiped

on warping...there was a run of "fridge" model Tor that a change in design created surface warping issues...outside of that, going back to literally hundreds of tables many of which were 15-25 years old, I have NEVER seen or heard of a surface warping unless someone spilled gallons of beer and let it sit without cleaning it or some other customer negelect sort of thing but if you have a relatively new table that may be starting to warp, you have a one out of a thousand table unless its one of that bad run but those started warped and didn't move slowly toward warping

Tornado was specifcally originally designed to go into a bar and hold up under the rigors of negelected bar life and with the purpose of keeping owner costs down (less replacement of men, rods, bearings, balls, handles, etc) and that is why it owns the consumer coin op market in the US

the context of my remarks are normally aimed at the US market...Garlando, Leonhart, Bonzini price themselves out of consideration even if they can even be found here.  If the person buying the table ever wants to play in one of the hundreds of weekly DYP's around the country, they probably want to buy Tor or something near its play style if they want to compete (I understand there is a Bonzini USA with a small foot print in the southeast but still the price of a new one is so expensive its not realistic - plus, if there is not already a table bias, I would not start someone off on Bonzini because of the small foot print, expensive table, extreme imbalance in style of play)

my take is and I have said this before...Tor is built as good or better than any existing table...Fireball is built better than Tor (coin op vs coin op) therefore Fireball is the best built table in the World

on playstyle...Fireball is the only table EVER built which was designed to try and accomodate ALL styles...trying to get the perfect balance between tic tacs, set up shots, banks, toes, speed and control - IT IS MY OPINION that this is the best thing for the future of tournament foosball and all tables should strive to exceed this benchmark...

go ahead and build your unique style driving table but on the side, use the decades of history at Garlando and Bonzini to design a table with all current knowledge of materials and engineering mixed with the history and future of tournament foosball, and design a table precision and balance that doesn't bias itself toward a specific style but instead bias' itself toward a table for all styles

[big al]

well bbtuna, looks like you made it quite clear again.....FIREBALL might be the table of all time...but unfortunately some of us still have to stick with the same old  stuff that we have....maybe our tables dont do everything that FIREBALL can do and more ..but its still foosball.......youve really made your point loud and clear, and after seeing it on yutube and hearing all the positive feedback...i want my FIREBALL too!!..........but like i said before that shippings a killer....unless Brad would like to send up a demo out hear and ill hold it..hehehe!!.....or maybe even lower the price...another hehehe!.....good review bbtuna!....

[garabdorje]

Anyway, thanks to garabdorje for getting me all excited about my old passion.   

Your welcome!


Foosball where I live is also dead or should I say non existent  I was thinking about the possibility of opening up a Foosball Bar in my home town.  I live in Ensenada Baja California in Mexico, that's about and hour and a half south of the border of San Diego. It would be a huge task to educate my people about the sport of Foosball, but maybe it will be worth the trouble.


I will need to go to bars and interview people to know if they would be interested in a Foosball bar, that will help to know my chances of success. Also I need to know how much are they willing to spend in a match, or if they preferred to play by the hour like in pool tables.


Alcohol is also important hehe it attracts people, I need to figure out permits and all that legal stuff, and also very very important I will need to talk to Brad Laurine to know If he can help me out whit some tables, maybe we can get to an arrangement that benefits both parties.


Oh well it still is an idea, I need more time and investment. Hopefully by next summer It can be a more concrete plan of business, for now I can gadder all the information regarding whats needed to make the idea happen.


And I need to improve my foosing, I have been playing for about 4 month but I need to get better and better so I can show how to make the different shots to newcomers and get them interested in the sport. I am already hooked with the snake shot, I know its and incredible fast and strong shot, thats why I like it, but my table doesn't help a lot. It has heavy telescopic 1" rods. But the good thing is that it will help me make muscle  , once I can get my Fireball I will be lightning fast (hopefully hahaha or I will end up with a back strain  )

[big al]

silentsam.....read your comments again and i swear i nearly choked..i cant beleive that all that crap happend to your table...my buddy slams hard and strong on his pull shot and toes as hard as ive seen um..for what reason..i dont know, but he does...for the Warrior to warp because of that kind of play is ridiculous..and hillarious..just cant understand it..all my men and ive bought extra..have all fit snug and tight not one is loose...the chrome that flakes on your table is another story...i havent seem one speck of flake yet and these tables are over 2years old..sounds kind of flakey...when we play which is every week...its as hard core as it gets...i own 2 Warriors and both are still the same as when i first got them......i know that i would love to own a Fireball table but its not happening now.....i still play on the Warrior and ill back them up 100%...all i can say is you probably ended up with one of the lemons...thats not your fault......

[SilentSam]

It's good that your tables are standing up, but keep in mind that the IFP and Warrior partnership ended due to the tables not withstanding tournament play. Basically Mary demanded that Warrior make a durable coin-op that wouldn't degrade, and when that didn't happen, she went with Tornado. I'm very surprised that your rods aren't flaking though; I've almost run through the equivalent of 2 sets...

[jagiar]

bbtuna, my comments on my Tornado table has nothing to do with play style or my personal table preferences.  I am not so silly to post on a forum where professional players visit and base my comments on my preferences.  In fact, my comment never mentions play style or preferences at all.  My comment stems solely from my use of my grey marble table, which from the reviews on this site and others, was the 'best built table ever' (and not just best TORNADO table).  So this would, by default, categorize the grey/brown table as better than any ITSF sanctioned table as of the date of the comments that I reviewed (as these comments were comming from many pro level players) (by the way, if I remember correctly, they 'fridge' was already out).  Now, if I recall correctly, the 'best built table ever' comments comprised of not only the robustness of the table, but also what you can do with it (in terms of shot/pass/play capabilites), etc.

Now in terms of shot/pass/play capabilities, as was mentioned here many times, every table has its pro/con characteristics. eg - a pin shot is easier on a Garlando than a Tornado, while a tic-tacing stick pass from the 5 to the 3 would be easier on the Tornado.  But this is neither here nor there as a general argument for which table is 'better' because it's all dependant on your playing style.  And when it comes to playing style we need to keep in mind that we should not just focus on the styles we are familiar with but also other styles we may not be familiar with.  As such, I'm sure Fireball would have it's own limitations where this is concerned.

My comments were based on the quality of build.  And from my experience, the 'best table ever built', simply isn't.  Now, it could be possible, as I implied to in my earlier post, that possibly the commentors who said the grey marble was the best did not have many years experience in testing the robustness of other tables to see if, over the long term, a grey marble stands up to other tables (and I'm not talking about the $100 Walmart special - which was a somewhat unnecessary comment, by the way).  This type of assesment, in my opinion, also needs to apply to Fireball.  As this is a recently introduced table, I think it may be premature to label it as the 'best' (regardless of preferences or what it can do).  Let's see how it stands up to the rogours of play over the years and then conclude.  That's all I was trying to say.

[snake eyes]

So Jag please indulge us, If Tornado is firewood then what stand up to your rigors of strenuous play?