Topic: Dead ball almost in goal??????

[Jeron]

OK guys here is the question i pose to you.. in our local tournaments we play a lot of pro/ams. So we typically have pro's/experts playing on a team with a beginner. And typically the beginner gets put in the goalie position.

this is the situation. the ball gets past the goalie rods and comes to a rest behind the last goalie rod about to fall into the goal. I know the three things that can happen are:

1. the ball is out of range of the men and gets started in the goalie area just as any dead ball does.

2. the ball can be reached by the man but the team chooses to take the time penalty and the ball gets reset on the opposing teams 5 bar vs risk knocking the ball in the goal.

3. tries to get the ball out but knock it in the goal for a point for the other team.

So i understand how those rules work but here is the problem. because it is usually a beginner in the goal, the higher ranked team member has them call a time out before even trying to get the ball then they switch and the pro tries to get the ball out or chooses to take the penalty.

There have been arguments on whether or not you can call a time out in this situation because there is no firm indication of "ball control" or lack of "possession". like it says in the rules that in order to call a time out you must have possession of the ball and it must be stopped.

What do you all think.

[foozkillah]

Whether the ball is in reach at the edge of the goal (true possession, where they can touch the ball) or out of reach of the goal rod figure (true dead ball)..  When that team calls a time out with the ball STOPPED at the edge of the goal, they are DECLARING THAT THEY HAVE POSSESSION AND ARE CALLING A TIMEOUT.  I would recommend letting them try to touch the ball (by the pro or stronger player with a switch in the timeout) and indadvertently knocking it in anyway.  If the stronger player shows he/she cannot reach the ball, then it's a dead ball .. duhhhhh ... and they retain possession, of course, as with any dead ball not stopped between the opposing five bars.

If you, as the opponent or opposing team argue that the ball (STOPPED remember?) is actually dead, then they can simply accept your proposal and reserve the ball at the two bar nearest to where the ball became dead. DUHHHHH...

SO WHY WOULDN'T YOU LET THEM (MISTAKEN OR NOT) ASSUME IT'S IN THEIR POSSESSION AND NOT A DEAD BALL?  Hopefully it isn't and their team tries to touch the ball (from the top, of course) and knocks it in.  You disagree and they can always ACCEPT your silly argument!  "Okay, okay! It's a stopped ball and it's dead, just like you propose... let's just put it back in play and .... READY?"

REMEMBER.
1. If it's a dead ball, and the ball is STOPPED .... they can call a time out. So can you or your team.
2. If it isn't a dead ball, then the ball is STOPPED and IN THEIR POSSESSION ... they can call a timeout.

Using the ITSF rules of play (as accepted by IFP Tornado.. see their site)

9. Time Out
Each team is allowed two time outs per game during which the players may leave the table. Such time outs shall not exceed 30 seconds. If the ball is in play, time out may be called only by the team in possession of the ball, and then only if the ball is completely stopped. If the ball is not in play, either team may call time out.

So... if they declare they have possession and the ball is stopped AND YOU ACCEPT (DUHHH) they can call a timeout.

And... if you disagree that they don't have possession, that it is a dead ball, they they'd be idiotic to deny your argument, since that simply means they say "Yeah, OK.. " (DUHHHH) and reserve the ball from the 2bar.

Your fallacy was that a timeout can only be called by the team in possession, but THAT'S ONLY FOR A BALL IN PLAY, NOT A STOPPED BALL. You say, "Hold on! that ball's stopped but I believe it's a dead ball".  They accept the argument and keep and reserve the ball or you agree it's in their reach and possession... So why wouldn't you let them call the timeout and deal with it?

Capiz?