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Step 2 to move the game forward; GET RID OF THE MONKEY!

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Step 2 to move the game forward; GET RID OF THE MONKEY!
« on: November 07, 2012, 04:29:30 PM »
The monkey shot has ruined the game of foosball, and it should be eliminated from tournament play. I don't expect everyone to agree (particularly monkey shooters) but please read on and I'll explain...

First and foremost, the best foosball players are to be respected for their dedication, hard work, mental prowess, and incredible accomplishments. They would find a way to win no matter what the shot or the rules. My goal here is simple; Make the game of foosball as good as it was before, better than it is now, and the best that it can be.

Over the past few years there have been incredible efforts by many to move the game forward. Unfortunately the overall results and forecast remain dismal. Tournament event are incredibly expensive with almost no chance of most participants making any real money. The events entry and other fees are higher, payouts are lower, and only a very few players make any real net profits.

One very simple and important step to move the game forward; Eliminate the monkey shot from tournament play!

The monkey shot is checkers, not chess. I believe that it’s a big reason why the game has not moved forward, and in fact has gone backwards.

If they are being honest, even the best of players will admit that the monkey is “no brain” shot. I believe they call it a "snake" shot now because a monkey shot sounds stupid, oh well... Players mostly do the monkey shot for 3 reasons;

A. It was declared as legal / allowed, at very least not yet disallowed
B. It scores a very high percentage, with minimal effort or intelligence required
C. Everyone is doing it, so you also need to do it to be competitive and win

A basic premise of quality sports competition is that both offense and defense should have a similar balance or potential for success. The monkey shot greatly tilts the balance of success heavily in the favor of the 3 bar offense. Even the best of players seem resolved to accepting a low percentage of monkey blocking defense. The player with a monkey shot knows that they don’t need incredible amounts of intelligence or stamina, just a mastery of slapping the ball on goal. That is what I meant by the “monkey is checkers, not chess”. The monkey shot exploits weakness in the design of both the table and the rules. Neither was meant for this mutation of a shot.

Even when the defensive 2 rod is pulled or pushed against the bumpers, the ball can easily clear the 2 rod without touching the defensive 2 man. The offensive monkey shooter knows this and works both sides to extremes, beyond where the 2 rod can go. This causes defenses to be stretched both ways, allowing big gaps up the middle. This makes the “flip” straight in, or inside middle shots extremely indefensible. Yes I know that some players have figured out ways to slow it down, but that in itself does not validate it. 

From a spectator’s viewpoint, the monkey shot is just not compelling to watch. Once you know that the shooter is mostly sitting “pinned”, really doing nothing but running the clock, rocking side to side like a mental patient, wearing out the defender, and then basically guessing… it gets boring. It’s just a high percentage shot, not brilliance. The game of pool has many trick shots that are equally interesting, but only allowed in “artistic” or “trick” shot events… That is where the monkey belongs, trick shot or specialty events only… or outright illegal and banned.

Some potential solutions to improve the game; Make the monkey what it really is, a “novelty” or “trick shot”, and disallow it from open tournament play at all levels. Get back to basics, when foosball used to be a real chess game, i.e. the pull shot, toe shot, heel shot, 2-3 man kick shots, sliders, dinks, cuts, banks, etc… These shots require more “chess” like thought, strategy and skills. The monkey shot is a mutation that grew like a weed and now should be eliminated for the better of the game.

And last but not least, the best monkey shooters do not even have their hand on the handle to start! What game or sport that involves a handle allows the player to hold something other than the handle? Baseball… No, Tennis, No… Racquetball, No… Pool, No… In order to grow the player base, the game needs to be easily played by beginners. So now you take a brand new potential player, and don’t grab the handle, but place the handle way up on your wrist and forearm! Are you kidding me, most people will run away from the game and never touch it again! This is partly why the player base is diminishing, not growing exponentially. Not counting the family, kids and friends of players, outside growth is almost zero.

Last, on the legality of the monkey shot; I deem it illegal for this reason, the 360 rule is not applied fairly and equally to all players shots.

Example, if you set up the ball on the heel, or either side of the foot, you are allowed only a single 360 degrees after contact. Anything more is considered a illegal spin. Now, you put the ball under the toe and you are allow 2 complete 360's (1 before and 1 after). Keep in mind while the ball is in the toe position you are contacting the ball. The ruling that has allowed the monkey to be legal says that you get a 360 before AND after contacting the ball. That is the problem, the rule should state that you are allowed only one 360 before OR after contacting the ball, not both. Almost every monkey shot has follow through that extends beyond the point to shot release, and anything over 360 from original point of contact should be illegal. If you do a pull shot or kick shot, controlled or not and the rod rotates any degree beyone a 360 it's illegal. This is an easy rule to fix and be applied fairly to all players and shots, regardless of starting position; You get ONE 360 degree rotation either before OR after contacting the ball PERIOD, not both.

Regardless if the ruling changes anything, the monkey shot should be banned because it bad for the game. It's boring to watch because the strategy is mostly guesswork. You might think this will lose players but I believe they will change and adapt to more conventional shots. And last it's a safety hazard, and I'm surprised that no one has got an eye put out yet. Seriously, love the players, but hate the shot! Get rid of the monkey and lets get foosball back on track for greatness!   

Re: Step 2 to move the game forward; GET RID OF THE MONKEY!
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2012, 03:17:52 AM »
Sorry, I don't play foosball for 30 year. When I was introduced to the game - I saw the snake shot and it's OK with me.

100 years back when the foosball was invented it was primary a game for home entertainment (not sport or source of income). Latter the game became very popular. After that the interest declined because of the video games. The game was removed from the bars because the video games required less space and more coins. Latter computer games were invented. And this seems to be the perfect home entertainment. Now the youngsters prefer to play FIFA than foosball -- you can kick as Ronaldinho by pressing the X button. Unlike foosball where you need to spend years to shoot the perfect pull shot. The biggest enemy of the game is not the snake shot but the  computer games.

Currently the pool of players is decreasing - hence less money and tougher matches in the sport. If you want more money into the sport - make more youngsters play the game. I think the "easier" the winning shot is - the more people will be willing to play. (Like the X on FIFA for Ronaldinho best shot)

I seems to me that this game improvement is more like "lets get back in time, when we were  making big money with the pullshot, there were no computer games and the pullshot was the best shot."

Note: I don't shoot the snake
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 03:39:07 AM by Malamir »

Offline alaskan thunder

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Re: Step 2 to move the game forward; GET RID OF THE MONKEY!
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2012, 03:07:28 PM »

Even when the defensive 2 rod is pulled or pushed against the bumpers, the ball can easily clear the 2 rod without touching the defensive 2 man. The offensive monkey shooter knows this and works both sides to extremes, beyond where the 2 rod can go. This causes defenses to be stretched both ways, allowing big gaps up the middle. This makes the “flip” straight in, or inside middle shots extremely indefensible. Yes I know that some players have figured out ways to slow it down, but that in itself does not validate it. 

From a spectator’s viewpoint, the monkey shot is just not compelling to watch. Once you know that the shooter is mostly sitting “pinned”, really doing nothing but running the clock, rocking side to side like a mental patient, wearing out the defender, and then basically guessing… it gets boring. 



Sorry but "easy" is not the way that I would describe going deadman both ways on the "monkey shot". It's actually much harder than hitting a dead pullshot (for me anyways). You then go on to state that the roller is "not compelling to watch" because a shoot sits on the ball for a long time and then shoots. I urge you to watch a really good pullshooter such as Tom Yore or Adrian Zamora, they do the exact same thing. Sit on the ball for between 1 and 15 seconds and then shoot. From a spectator standpoint pulls and snakes are at best equal and I would argue that the entertainment value is higher for the snake. If you have someone that has never seen tournament foos before, a roller gets way more oohs and aahs than other shots.

At first snakes can be really hard to block but after a while they are not that much harder than any other shot. Most tour players would rather defend a good snake shooter than a good pullshooter IMO. Pulls have so many more options.

Look I can gather from your posts that you are an oldschool player that has recently come back onto the scene. It kind of sounds like a rookie, high on cocaine, shot a rollover on you and scored ~100%. I hate to tell you this but the game has changed significantly, as has the player base. The snake has very little to do with the decline of foos, it is well settled that video games and the decline of the gameroom directly correlate w/ our present decline in players. Foosball is thriving in Europe (hell the US Pro Tour has a stop there this year) and many of them shoot a rollover. Now ask yourself if an 18 year old in Anytown, USA is going to endure months or years getting dominated by experienced players or if he is going to buy Halo 4 and master it in a week. Everyone knows the answer to that question. The state of foos has little to do with the nature of the game itself and everything to do with how we (particularly the younger generations) choose to entertain ourselves.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 03:12:21 PM by alaskan thunder »

Re: Step 2 to move the game forward; GET RID OF THE MONKEY!
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2012, 06:16:11 PM »
I am going to go out on a limb and say the reason foos isnt as popular anymore is because of a lack of information.  I am new to the game, and am finding it very hard to find any real instruction.  Those that are pro level or close to dont want to spend the time to work with you, and those who will work with you can only show you a few things.  I think to see a major resurgence of foos there needs to be a dedicated effort to training new players whenever they express intrest.  Even if that means giving up the little secrets that have taken you years to learn.  Like any sport out there, nobody becomes great w/out training and coaching.  I think a hard fought grass roots effort to get more players competititve will do more for the sport than any other one item.

Also, being new to the game i find defending snake shots, even againts the really really good guys easier than defending the pull.  When i see someone set the ball up in a front pin, i am happier than when i see them set up for a pull as my blocking percentages are much higher against the snake than the pull.

Offline alaskan thunder

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Re: Step 2 to move the game forward; GET RID OF THE MONKEY!
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2012, 11:55:09 PM »
I am going to go out on a limb and say the reason foos isnt as popular anymore is because of a lack of information.  I am new to the game, and am finding it very hard to find any real instruction.  Those that are pro level or close to dont want to spend the time to work with you, and those who will work with you can only show you a few things.  I think to see a major resurgence of foos there needs to be a dedicated effort to training new players whenever they express intrest.  Even if that means giving up the little secrets that have taken you years to learn.  Like any sport out there, nobody becomes great w/out training and coaching.  I think a hard fought grass roots effort to get more players competititve will do more for the sport than any other one item.

Also, being new to the game i find defending snake shots, even againts the really really good guys easier than defending the pull.  When i see someone set the ball up in a front pin, i am happier than when i see them set up for a pull as my blocking percentages are much higher against the snake than the pull.

I sympathize with you, Indy. When I was coming up there were not any local pros that were willing to give me pointers. I did find that when I went out on the pro tour, people were much more willing to help. I was lucky and drew a promaster in one of my early tour events and I picked his brain the entire event (we got 3rd or 4th). From that point forward I never hesitated to ask a top player his opinion. I have found that most  are more than willing to give pointers if you can muster up the courage to ask.

Re: Step 2 to move the game forward; GET RID OF THE MONKEY!
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2012, 10:53:49 AM »
Getting tips about more finer things is fine and all, but what i think the game is missing is the amount of people willing to "train" you until you have the basics down well enough to be competitive.  There is no reason that someone should have to reach the amatuer level w/out help.  There are people giving me pointers, but not actual practice "sessions" so what i am trying to teach myself, i have no idea if i am doing it right or wrong and am probably developing many bad habbits.

Offline alaskan thunder

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Re: Step 2 to move the game forward; GET RID OF THE MONKEY!
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2012, 01:29:25 PM »
There may not be tons of teachers but my point is that you need to ask the right people. I have spent countless hours on the table with players ranging from true beginners up through experts. I am always willing to share because few folks helped me as I was climbing the ranks. IME there is usually at least one pro/master player in most areas that is willing to put in lots of time helping. If you are willing to accommodate them in terms of time/location/beer purchases, I bet you can find someone. Also there are lots of youtube videos by people like Zeke Cervantes and Ryan Knapton that are very helpful for rising players. Check out this PDF Ryan made. If you follow the drills and corresponding videos you will be well on your way to foosball glory, by which I mean occasionally winning your local DYP and earning enough $$ to cover your bar tab.

Link:  https://dl.dropbox.com/u/108973764/NextLevelFoosball%20Training%20Tutorial%20and%20Coursework.xlsx

Re: Step 2 to move the game forward; GET RID OF THE MONKEY!
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2012, 02:57:10 PM »
I'm only one man and one opinion, and I can appreciate differing views. We all have different backgrounds, experiences and thoughts. I know that my style of play is "Dinosaur-ish" and the game has changed. All good, all bad, probably neither. Thanks for the thoughtful responses and conversations!

Re: Step 2 to move the game forward; GET RID OF THE MONKEY!
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2012, 08:29:28 PM »
There may not be tons of teachers but my point is that you need to ask the right people. I have spent countless hours on the table with players ranging from true beginners up through experts. I am always willing to share because few folks helped me as I was climbing the ranks. IME there is usually at least one pro/master player in most areas that is willing to put in lots of time helping. If you are willing to accommodate them in terms of time/location/beer purchases, I bet you can find someone. Also there are lots of youtube videos by people like Zeke Cervantes and Ryan Knapton that are very helpful for rising players. Check out this PDF Ryan made. If you follow the drills and corresponding videos you will be well on your way to foosball glory, by which I mean occasionally winning your local DYP and earning enough $$ to cover your bar tab.

Link:  https://dl.dropbox.com/u/108973764/NextLevelFoosball%20Training%20Tutorial%20and%20Coursework.xlsx

WOW, i cannot believe i had not found that before... Thanks for the link.... thats what i am talking about, except it would be nice if that sort of training was available from the good local guys.  If the DYP tournies are on tuesday nights, then how about making monday nights, newbie nights, where the focus is on learning, not competing?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 08:33:22 PM by IndyGunworks »

Offline alaris

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Re: Step 2 to move the game forward; GET RID OF THE MONKEY!
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2012, 08:58:02 PM »
I know what you mean Indy. I thought I knew how to foos so I went to a tournament and came to find out I played bar room foos. I was able to learn the basics but that was about it until a friend started giving me tips and training. My game has improved tremendously! I agree with Alaskan thunder, find one local pro fooser that is willing to work with you.

Offline papafoos

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Re: Step 2 to move the game forward; GET RID OF THE MONKEY!
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2012, 09:22:52 AM »
I think it's probably too late to outlaw the monkey (snake, rollover)  It's now pretty much a part of the game.  If a promoter wants a tournament without the snake, then that's his right.  Brendon Flaherty has a classic doubles where the snake is outlawed.  I always stand behind the promoter.  He who puts up the cash makes the rules. ;)

It seems lately, I'm blocking the snake better than the pull.  That is probably due to the fact that I see more of them.  Like the pull, the best way to learn to block the shot is to learn the individual who is shooting the shot.  So if you don't get out and play against the snake, how can you expect to be able to block the snake?

And for Indy...The players at the major tournaments realize how fragile our game is.  They want more people to enjoy it.  For those players unwilling to help the newer players, consider this:  Helping the newer players get better forces your game to get better.