Topic: Old school v. New School

[Foosballer2013]

It has been a few years since the glory days.  Please go easy on me.
And yes, I realize the defense is asleep.lol
Thanks

http://vimeo.com/86284062

[man caveman]

thats some pretty good offence. I never did have those kind of shooting skills. had to play defence. if you could block a third of those shots and get it up to your offence partner you are doing ok. actually  its too far back to remember what a good blocking percentage would be.

[Foosballer2013]

My hats go off to the guys who take pride in playing tenacious d. Its a tough role to be the last line of defense. Its a sick feeling when you keep hearing "CRACK!" at your end of the field.

[Buckshot]

Foosballer2013,
     I really enjoyed watching you shoot on that old Bluetop. I started learning my backpin on the Greentop but refined further it on the Blue. The Browntop was very backpin friendly and I could score almost at will on anyone, but my passing game was weak so you know how that goes. I never practiced shooting the banks you demonstrated on a Bluetop. Very impressive demonstration.
     Around 1980 I went to a big tournament in Los Angeles and saw a big overweight guy shoot the backpin bank with devastating accuracy. He won a couple events if I remember correctly. He would pin the ball WAY far back, further that you would normally shoot the shot. He could hit inside and outside. The only person I saw block him with any success was Dan Kaiser.
     Fireball is a good backpin table, you should try it if you get the chance.

[BoulderFoos]

Ahh, refreshing to see some of the old shots on a real foosball table(s) The 1/4 Million, Million Dollar versions. As a player in the mid 70's these tables allowed the aspiring player to perfect a wide variety of very fast lethal shots that would leave the spectator scratching his head on how you did it. These day's need to come back. I come from an area of Colorado that was a mecca for foosball in the 70's. It was everywhere. In Boulder, we had no less then 6 foosball only parlors one with more than 40 tables and they were packed all day. It was insane. I think that foosball needs to make a comeback. I have read on other threads that people want the "snake shot" eliminated from competitions. My take on that , since the "snake" is nothing new is that it should be regulated as per how many times it can be employed per game. A player needs to have a pre-qualification session before he/she can enter a competition and can demonstrate that they have a variety of at least 10 lethal shots that they can execute and variations there of.  I think it is very unfair to the players who have this knowledge of how to do a lethal push-pull reverse, front pin squeeze, one motion long push tap, banks at will, straight up push-pull reverse, slice taps, reverse tap and all the variations are endless. This is skilled play if you can master it much less defend against it.

Anybody can develop a good five man pass, pin the ball and do a variety of pin snake shots and win tournaments, but with only that in their pocket of skills they are very limited to that only and that level of play which minimizes both the skill level and the game itself level. We need to up the skill and requirements that at least 10 different shots need to be executed. Not only will that give the game more old school players vs. the young guns, it will make it more exciting and your defense will never know what you are about to do or where it went. I have watched a varity of tourneys on youtube and its always the same thing. Skilled passing from five man to three man and then the front pin and then the snake shot, Boring, Really this is skilled play. Maybe skilled at 1 shot obviously.

Then we need to approach the table issues. Alot of old timers who actually have 20-30 lethal shots or variations there of find that it is impossible to accomplish these shots on different tables. I know, I have a Tornado with hollow bars and you are limited to the shots you can preform vs. a Million Dollar table. I think this is one reason for the decline in interest. Old timers want to employ all their skills and are limited by hard men, hard to control balls, hollow bars etc. Not that Tornado's are not good tables but they promote a certain limited style of play.

Just my take. In the video, is that Million Dollar table for sale?

Also, is the Warrior table a good alternative to Million Dollar?

[Foosballer2013]

Boulder
Been a while since I've been on here. I enjoyed your input on the topic. The table i shot that video on was sold shortly after. I have restored and sold around 8 or 9 TS tables the last couple years.  The issue of shot variety is so true. TS players, or at last the era they played in, seemed to provide a lot more variety than the tornado players of today. Watching a snake shot that takes 10 seconds to get off over and over bores the hell out of me. Not that hard to defend either.
I happen to be in Colorado this week visiting my brother in Parker. Always love coming here. Elitch Gardens was one hell of a venue back in the day.

Foos On!

[SilentSam]

Ahh, refreshing to see some of the old shots on a real foosball table(s) The 1/4 Million, Million Dollar versions. As a player in the mid 70's these tables allowed the aspiring player to perfect a wide variety of very fast lethal shots that would leave the spectator scratching his head on how you did it. These day's need to come back.

Foosball has evolved since then. The most consistent and dominant techniques will always be the most used ones at the higher levels.

I have read on other threads that people want the "snake shot" eliminated from competitions.

Honestly, this is a vocal minority vs a silent majority. The majority of competitive players are fine with the snake shot, it's only old school players (who, quite frankly, wouldn't play tournament anymore regardless of the rules) who seem to have a problem with it. Case in point: Warrior didn't allow snake shots in open events, and look at their turnouts.

My take on that , since the "snake" is nothing new is that it should be regulated as per how many times it can be employed per game. A player needs to have a pre-qualification session before he/she can enter a competition and can demonstrate that they have a variety of at least 10 lethal shots that they can execute and variations there of.

This is a strange argument. Do high jumpers need to demonstrate other techniques than the Falsbury  Flop? Did Shaq need to demonstrate 3-point skills in the NBA? Enforcing variety in shots means you're limiting the potential of your opponents, not increasing it. Why limit what a competitor can do? That's not going to show who the best player is.

I think it is very unfair to the players who have this knowledge of how to do a lethal push-pull reverse, front pin squeeze, one motion long push tap, banks at will, straight up push-pull reverse, slice taps, reverse tap and all the variations are endless. This is skilled play if you can master it much less defend against it.

I think it's unfair to limit someone who has a refined shot to how many time they may shoot it. Most people who have a variety of shots obtained them because they don't have a killer primary. Nothing is preventing anyone from employing a variety of shots, so clearly the tournament outcome shows that it simply isn't worthwhile to do.

If it took such skill to defend against these shots, why aren't more people shooting them? Variations are nice and all, but they're gimmick shots. Half the time they're raceable, and the other half they're inconsistent.

Anybody can develop a good five man pass, pin the ball and do a variety of pin snake shots and win tournaments, but with only that in their pocket of skills they are very limited to that only and that level of play which minimizes both the skill level and the game itself level.

You must be joking here... The majority of old school players have terrible 5 bars. It takes a REALLY long time to develop a good 5 series. Honestly, if it were so easy to do, why is it that the same players are always at the top in tournaments? I mean, supposedly anyone can develop a good 5 series, and the snake is so freakin easy, that means we should have a huge variety in who wins, right?

We need to up the skill and requirements that at least 10 different shots need to be executed. Not only will that give the game more old school players vs. the young guns, it will make it more exciting and your defense will never know what you are about to do or where it went.

While we're at it, let's change hockey so that the same player can never score twice in one game... Or let's make soccer so that you can never kick with the same foot twice in a row...

I have watched a varity of tourneys on youtube and its always the same thing. Skilled passing from five man to three man and then the front pin and then the snake shot, Boring, Really this is skilled play. Maybe skilled at 1 shot obviously.

Look, I agree that it looks boring. But it is the highest calibre of play. Hell, even in the late 70s everyone at the highest level was only shooting pull shots, and you would see the occasional pushkick. How is that any different than majority snakeshots with the occasional pull? Tournaments aren't there to entertain you, they exist to show who the best is.

Then we need to approach the table issues. Alot of old timers who actually have 20-30 lethal shots or variations there of find that it is impossible to accomplish these shots on different tables. I know, I have a Tornado with hollow bars and you are limited to the shots you can preform vs. a Million Dollar table. I think this is one reason for the decline in interest. Old timers want to employ all their skills and are limited by hard men, hard to control balls, hollow bars etc. Not that Tornado's are not good tables but they promote a certain limited style of play.

Tornado isn't more limited, it's more consistent. The ball always rolls true, so you can have a much more consistent delivery in everything that you do. TS? It was a constant battle to control the ball at all... The consistencies of the table varied from table to table, so you never knew what you were going to get.

And 20-30 lethal shots? More like 20-30 absolutely mediocre shots, and throw in a good pull, maybe a pushkick, and maybe a backpin. But mostly pulls.

Sure, maybe you personally can execute some of these 'lethal shots' on TS better than Tornado... But they probably all have a tell to them, some slight hitch, or setup routine, that lets a goalie what you're going to do. The reason tournament players develop an unraceable pull or snake is that a) it's the most consistent, and b) There are no tells to which hole you're shooting at. Yes, even on TS.

Also, foosball was in decline even while the TS table was used as the tournament standard. The kicker? Video games. It's even more so now that games are online.

I hear this type of discussion a lot, but I can guarantee a few things: Bring back the TS brown top, and snake shots will still win top prize. Bring back TS and the players who are winning now will still win. Enforce a variety of shots, and the players who are winning now will still win. Don't believe me? Look at Leonhart tournaments; That table is the extension of the TS Brown Top.

The game is in the state it's in now simply because that's what wins using the current rules.

P.s.: I shoot a variety of shots, from tic-tacs, pulls, euro pins, pushkicks, but no snake... I even have 3 5 bar series' that I mix while playing... I simply disagree with the premise of your post.

I also play on a wide variety of tables: Warrior, Tornado, Fireball, Garlando, Bonzini, and have played on a lot of the old school tables at length (TS blue and green top, Dynamo Browntop, Deutscher Meister etc).

[alaskan thunder]

^ This guy.....

Great post Sam.

[DWFoosball]

Clearly this is a touchy subject...

I played a ton on TS brown top tables many years ago.
I recently started playing again on Tornado tables.

It is definitely super fun to be back playing again, but i miss the variety of shots (especially banks) that seemed WAY more common on the TS tables.

[DenverFoosManiac]

You can't control what your opponents will do, but if you like shooting bank shots - more power to ya!

[Buckshot]

Silent Sam, that is one of the best posts I've read on this site. You stated your opinions, backed them up with coherent reasoning and knowledge, and disagreed with BoulderFoos without once insulting him or getting out of line.

I'm Old School, but I find your argument honest, intelligent and compelling. I don't shoot a backpin because I think it's the best shot, I shoot it because it's the ONLY shot can can shoot with success and consistency.

I read an interview with Todd Lafreddo wherein he stated that he liked to play razzle-dazzle for fun but has to shoot his pull shot over and over again in tournaments because that's where the money comes from. That about sums it up.

[Foosballer2013]

Much respect to all you guys. True gentlemen.
Nice finishing touch Buckshot... Todd won a lot.

[peachsb]

Ahh, refreshing to see some of the old shots on a real foosball table(s) The 1/4 Million, Million Dollar versions. As a player in the mid 70's these tables allowed the aspiring player to perfect a wide variety of very fast lethal shots that would leave the spectator scratching his head on how you did it. These day's need to come back.

Foosball has evolved since then. The most consistent and dominant techniques will always be the most used ones at the higher levels.

I have read on other threads that people want the "snake shot" eliminated from competitions.

Honestly, this is a vocal minority vs a silent majority. The majority of competitive players are fine with the snake shot, it's only old school players (who, quite frankly, wouldn't play tournament anymore regardless of the rules) who seem to have a problem with it. Case in point: Warrior didn't allow snake shots in open events, and look at their turnouts.

I understand what upset BoulderFoos as I too was disappointed to see from just the handful of videos I have watched just how many top players all seem to do the same shot: a snake done from toe. But to say one can’t use it? Strongly disagree. When I was first schooled by a snake, I didn’t bitch and say “You shouldn’t use that” I said “show me how that works….”. I am getting excited about the idea of going to tourney’s again. I wouldn’t go if snakes weren’t allowed.

My take on that , since the "snake" is nothing new is that it should be regulated as per how many times it can be employed per game. A player needs to have a pre-qualification session before he/she can enter a competition and can demonstrate that they have a variety of at least 10 lethal shots that they can execute and variations there of.

This is a strange argument. Do high jumpers need to demonstrate other techniques than the Falsbury  Flop? Did Shaq need to demonstrate 3-point skills in the NBA? Enforcing variety in shots means you're limiting the potential of your opponents, not increasing it. Why limit what a competitor can do? That's not going to show who the best player is.

Agree. This is an even worse idea. To me this is like saying “You can dunk in the NBA, but only 10 times.”

I think it is very unfair to the players who have this knowledge of how to do a lethal push-pull reverse, front pin squeeze, one motion long push tap, banks at will, straight up push-pull reverse, slice taps, reverse tap and all the variations are endless. This is skilled play if you can master it much less defend against it.

I think it's unfair to limit someone who has a refined shot to how many time they may shoot it. Most people who have a variety of shots obtained them because they don't have a killer primary. Nothing is preventing anyone from employing a variety of shots, so clearly the tournament outcome shows that it simply isn't worthwhile to do.
If it took such skill to defend against these shots, why aren't more people shooting them? Variations are nice and all, but they're gimmick shots. Half the time they're raceable, and the other half they're inconsistent.

Agreed. If one is much better than most of the people one plays, then one is able to play many variations – shots many of us have and practice. But they aren’t our BEST shots. Speaking only for myself, against a lesser player you will see a plethora of skill. I’ll admit it – I love to show off a 5 man / 3 man duet using the goal as my drum. Why do you think I spent hours and hours and hours practicing? But against a peer or better in a money game (or tourney)? You will see one of only a handful of set shots, and they are all snakes (a tick tack, a toe, a push, and a dink) and they all start almost identically, except the toe.  And if it was the toe that was working better, I’ll hammer it until I am up three points in the last game. The reason we don’t see variations at high levels is the same for foos as it is in any sport. At the highest level there is a current standard and it is prevalent. There is a reason the Knicks don’t play like the Globetrotters; those “skill shots” Boulder wants to see aren’t consistent winners, and the game is about winning, not showmanship. That is until the Knicks are up 20 points, then you see flair.

Anybody can develop a good five man pass, pin the ball and do a variety of pin snake shots and win tournaments, but with only that in their pocket of skills they are very limited to that only and that level of play which minimizes both the skill level and the game itself level.

You must be joking here... The majority of old school players have terrible 5 bars. It takes a REALLY long time to develop a good 5 series. Honestly, if it were so easy to do, why is it that the same players are always at the top in tournaments? I mean, supposedly anyone can develop a good 5 series, and the snake is so freakin easy, that means we should have a huge variety in who wins, right?

Have to agree with you Sam. I started losing respect for Boulder on this comment. In fact, when I used to train up-and-comers (which was 20 years ago), I told them “You should have at least one brutal shot from your 3 man. And at that point, the game is won or lost on your 5 man. In singles (goalies being equal), the better 5 gets more shots on goal, and therefore wins.” I can’t tell you how many people (again this was 20 yrs ago) I won stupid cash from the beach bars who had wicked pull shots, but a lousy 5 man. (I always called it a 5 man. Apparently its called a “5 bar”, but you guys can make fun of me… I’ll still call it a 5 man).

We need to up the skill and requirements that at least 10 different shots need to be executed. Not only will that give the game more old school players vs. the young guns, it will make it more exciting and your defense will never know what you are about to do or where it went.

While we're at it, let's change hockey so that the same player can never score twice in one game... Or let's make soccer so that you can never kick with the same foot twice in a row...

Handicapping better players does not equal “more exciting” and rarely does a competitive player not know “where it went”. They may have guessed wrong or got beat, but they saw where it went.

Look, I agree [many of the tourney’s on youtube] look boring. But it is the highest calibre of play. Hell, even in the late 70s everyone at the highest level was only shooting pull shots, and you would see the occasional pushkick. How is that any different than majority snakeshots with the occasional pull? Tournaments aren't there to entertain you, they exist to show who the best is.

Playing when I did it was all about the “new snakes” vs the old school pull shots. I am aghast that 20 years later, it’s still the same argument. Well, not really, I guess it is largely decided now

Then we need to approach the table issues. Alot of old timers who actually have 20-30 lethal shots or variations there of find that it is impossible to accomplish these shots on different tables. I know, I have a Tornado with hollow bars and you are limited to the shots you can preform vs. a Million Dollar table. I think this is one reason for the decline in interest. Old timers want to employ all their skills and are limited by hard men, hard to control balls, hollow bars etc. Not that Tornado's are not good tables but they promote a certain limited style of play.

Tornado isn't more limited, it's more consistent. The ball always rolls true, so you can have a much more consistent delivery in everything that you do. TS? It was a constant battle to control the ball at all... The consistencies of the table varied from table to table, so you never knew what you were going to get.

I refused to buy anything but a Tornado coin-op for this very reason. Now that I have, and I am getting into these forums, youtube, etc. I realize a Warrior probably would have been fine (or a Fireball or several others), but I have no regrets. I can’t STAND the inconsistency of the TS and the whole generation like them.

And 20-30 lethal shots? More like 20-30 absolutely mediocre shots, and throw in a good pull, maybe a pushkick, and maybe a backpin. But mostly pulls.
Sure, maybe you personally can execute some of these 'lethal shots' on TS better than Tornado... But they probably all have a tell to them, some slight hitch, or setup routine, that lets a goalie what you're going to do. The reason tournament players develop an unraceable pull or snake is that a) it's the most consistent, and b) There are no tells to which hole you're shooting at. Yes, even on TS.

Wow – now you’re poking the bear. This reminds me of the drunks who said they played better on a random bar cue than my Muecci. Give me a break. You’re used to crap, and now you say it’s better because it’s what you’re used to. IMHO Tornados won the US in the 80’s and 90’s because they were better than the other predominantly available tables in the US. What’s the best now? As stated many times elsewhere, for now it is only a matter of opinion and cannot be proven today, but might be by history, at least to some.

Also, foosball was in decline even while the TS table was used as the tournament standard. The kicker? Video games. It's even more so now that games are online.
I hear this type of discussion a lot, but I can guarantee a few things: Bring back the TS brown top, and snake shots will still win top prize. Bring back TS and the players who are winning now will still win. Enforce a variety of shots, and the players who are winning now will still win. Don't believe me? Look at Leonhart tournaments; That table is the extension of the TS Brown Top.
The game is in the state it's in now simply because that's what wins using the current rules.
P.s.: I shoot a variety of shots, from tic-tacs, pulls, euro pins, pushkicks, but no snake... I even have 3 5 bar series' that I mix while playing... I simply disagree with the premise of your post.

If I don’t read this not slow, nothing you say here doesn’t make sense. (sorry, it’s just a long post and I wanted to know if any of you were still reading) Wow – interesting you don’t have a snake. You want me to teach it to you?  J/K

I also play on a wide variety of tables: Warrior, Tornado, Fireball, Garlando, Bonzini, and have played on a lot of the old school tables at length (TS blue and green top, Dynamo Browntop, Deutscher Meister etc).

Now you’re just bragging…

[jimgilbert]

Simple solution? MAKE THE TORONADO GOAL SMALLER! That will force players to learn a larger variety of shots.  I'm an ole timer that played on ALL tables... The biggest issue IS the size of the goal on Toronado tables.

BUT, it helps pump those quarters through.

[snake eyes]

Impressive Sam,,,, 100% back every word of that reply. I am 48 and all New School play. It took me 11 years to get a farwall stick series that was good enough to use on tour. And I shot a pull shot BUT see many good rollovers even in our small DYP's. Old school vs New school we let our game talk instead of talking *** on the table.