Topic: Any info on how this harvard plays?

[BenJammin]

Ive never played on a Harvard Table. How do they rank on a scale from 1-10 1 being lousy and 10 being "decent".
Heres a link to one for sale and was wondering if someone could shed some light on it. I know its not a T3000 so thats now out of the way, but lets say compared to an old TS? And can someone answer what makes a Micro games superior to a TS? The reason I keep referring to a TS is because I had so much play on a TS and can use that as a point of reference.
Heres the link to the harvard and thx in advance.
http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/tag/4944640374.html

[BenJammin]

http://smd.craigslist.org/tag/4936728748.html
How would this rate? Anyone ever play on this too?
Thx again

[hackjob]

I know this Harvard well; 5/10 it has some issue including:

-overall it is a fragile design and build quality, table cabinet seems strudy but parts are crap
-good for beer drinking foos but don't be surprised if things are breaking when you crank it up.
-used tables commonly have a warped playfield and wood separation due to beer drinking foos mentioned above
-banks are possible but many have a high density foam perimeter strip that chips away and thick playfield strips making it a bit unpredictable
-quick bearing wear, needs lots of lubrication
-figures will regularly break and are somewhat time consuming to change. 
-absolute bare minimum you would want as a starter table but you'll be very limited by it
-don't pay more than $80 for it, mainly for the TS type rods...burn it and film the action when your done

If you're desperate and on a budget, consider buying the new warrior as a stop gap. (6.5/10)  They are by far the best mid range table you can buy and it is delivered.  It is a modern design that gives you full shot capabilites ideal for home use.  Work some overtime with your savings of time and hassle sifting throught the junk. I find many used foosball tables have some expensive or fatal issues.  Probably the best way to find a good table is get involved with your local foos community.  Good tables tend to get passed through inside deals and local foosball message boards.

[BenJammin]

Funny how after a while of digging, some very detailed facts (tyvm) HackJob!!! You may have put me on the right course!! I think by the reviews and actual play Ive watched (would love to test drive though) of the Warrior table, its a table that all the shots can be utilized on, pull shot, snake, banks and also read the warrior's balls are actually stickier than Tornados. Want less stickyness then use Tornado balls. I think they are so liked they are on back order. Anyone have experience on one and I also read well built..
Thanx

[hackjob]

Well coincidentally I have tried the Warrior recently.  I have to qualify my following review because I do not play at a high level, however, I have been familiar with quite a few tables and played thousands of games.  I am not associated with any manufacturer or store.  I was/am merely interested in offering my opinion as I considered one myself for a local bar.  With this said I will give you my overall impression.   

It is a good, no, probably the best mid range table and definitely worth the purchase price.  It exceeds any used foosball tables in the <$350 range.  I would not put it in a busy bar for a number of mechanical and maitenance reasons, and I would not expect to run regular tournaments on them.  For regular home use it is really good, for getting started it's excellent. 

The initial feel is the table is a little bit lighter and mechanically sloppier than a maintained T3000COIN or of course the slick Fireball coin; sort of like TS.   The playfield has a more pronounced texture than any tornado or fireball  I've seen,  I thought it quite ball gripping.  Some of the ball position markers are missing, so it was a bit of a adaptive challenge for me at first, but I was able to adapt with other reference points.  There are two balls now available, original yellow control and now a red tornado like ball.  The red ball is pretty good and had some good tornado like feel and action.  The ball return hose can get jammed up but its' simple to correct or adjust if you take the time or better yet, stuff the goals with foam to save your back.   It does have plastic textured handles, but with wraps it is not a problem at all.  As far as playability goes it is quite good, in fact it seemed really easy to control the ball and allows lots of power in the shots.  The rod guards seem pretty sturdy, and believe it or not, protected persistant children over and over while playing that day.  I thought them a gimmick, but I saw the reason why they added them within 10 minutes.  I did find myself grabbing the guards on occasion instead of handles.

I inspected the bearings a bit, and its a pretty cool lock in the wall design via a nut fastener.  I suspect its pretty tough and will last.  I looked closely but I'm not sure if there is enough bearing wall so it can be bored out for real 5/8" hollow rods and use of other standard figures.  One thing that was annoying was a dead spot at the foot of the corner ramps in the center.  I'm not sure if this is a design flaw or just a spot that I hadn't adapted to avoid.  Been some time since I played single goalie.  The figures have a nice sharp angle on the feet corners... good for the slice angles, but will likely chip off over time as there is no chamfer/bevel to maintain the integrity of the plastic.  I didn't figure out the back pin release point, but I've read good things about the power squeeze.

This table did arrive with some damage, and as I have heard from others, warrior was right on it and replaced everything damaged free of charge.  I have dealt with them a few times myself, and they are really good for parts... fast... 

Anyway, the warrior table seemed pretty good overall... I don't mean to beat it up at all, just being critical of its design.  If I was in the market for mid range or budget home table I would go for one.  I wouldn't waste my time with used sportcraft harvard carrom costco tables...  If I still had the love for TS and couldn't find one... well I'd definitely go warrior.  I think the TS is better built, but they are also outdated and worn...  also the warrior has more of the modern features so it's better for learning shots and transferring those skills to tornado/fireball/shelti...  I don't think it has what it takes for bars or regular heavy use, but this model is targeted and priced for home use mid range market.  If money wasn't as much of a concern I would go for something better, like a tornado elite or performance games es or pro foos or higher.

[BenJammin]

1st of all before I go any further thank you very much for the very well articulated and in depth analysis of the table and qualifying your level of play. That certainly added a great deal of credibility from the start. I also know it took some time out of your day to write this response and I really appreciate that as time is very valuable. Im looking for a table for home use, not commercial and perhaps in the foreseeable future they make 1 much sturdier. I did see on you tube they are sponsoring a few tournaments and watched some live play. As far as the dead spot goes if that's the only 1 I can def work around it. The live play I watched left me with the impression you can perform any shot on you can do on a Tornado and the Warrior balls are stickier which I would like. Its not a 2,000 dollar table but by all accounts plays with the action (if you have the skills) of a table twice the price. The table is also sought after enough they cant make them as fast as demand calls. That tells me people really want this table and that's good. The bad is because they are out of stock for another month or 2. So now Im back to square 1.
  Id like to change the subject and ask you a question I can't wrap my brain around. Back when I had (soon or in due time) a really fast and ridiculous pull shot to the point as a ***y teen would tell my opponent I was going to put this ball right here and theres not a damn thing your going to be able to do about it. I borrowed that line from the movie Billy Jack. And so fast, smooth either pull it around and through the middle of the goalie and defender or just pull it around the 2 of them and there wasn't anything they could do about it. I was 17-18 and the guys I was playing were mid 30's and up. Didn't like me very much but I was able to back it up. That was my signature shot and my push shot was no slouch either. Never used a snake shot because I was killing good players with out it. I did this on a Mil Dollar TS coin op with solid steel rods. Moving forward 30 years my friend and partner back then tells me he and a friend split a table. A tornado (I forgot the model but is middle of road for them) and the 1st or maybe more times I played on it I was just getting killed. Was defending alright, but I had no offense what so ever. This is over the last 3 months or so. 2 weeks ago he bought a T3000. Nice feel and the game is now starting to slow down for me and I beat him a few games. That's where Im at now.
 I would really like to know why did they stop making tables with solid rods? The weight they had was how I generated my speed and power. Its not like 30 years of rust was enough, I had to find an entirely new approach and touch to everything. What changed things lol. Or was I way more clueless than I thought back then?

[hackjob]

Ok, I would like to offer you a completely fabricated off the cuff answer(s) to your burning question...

why were the original rods solid steel? ease of manufacture, readily available inexpensive metal stock rods.

why did performance foosball table designers / players hollow out the rods at increased expense? -- reduce weight and materials required  while keeping the standard diameter and similar yeild strength.  This was so preferred they eventually became a competitive sales requirement on higher end tables.  Warrior for instance stayed solid but went with slim solid rods likely with improved metal yeild properties to keep both weight and costs down.

what advantages does a lighter rod provide? faster acceleration with the same torque or force, improves both shot and blocking times and finesse.  Reduced muscle fatique and reduced repetitive stress on arm and shoulders after long durations of competitive play.

what disadvantages did the lighter rods introduce? - shot timing varies significantly on the variety of tables out there, this is due to lower acceleration/top speed and decreased momentum or kinetic energy transferred to the ball,  More roll over slop goals  go in unless the men are in the deflect position.  Guys like yourself now have to breach faster more intricate defense patterns.

[BenJammin]

You make some valid points. I missed the transition but having a blast relearning and just playing. My defense is hanging in pretty well. Shot timing has improved but is where I need the most improvement and trying to learn a softer/lighter attitude. Also to loosen up wrists last time i played last week I applied deep heat rub and that helped too. A little smelly lol. Maybe perhaps because I was young there wasnt any muscle fatigue, but w the heavy rods speed was never an issue. In fact I never had a snake shot and the heavy rods shot ball harder and if opponent didnt have tight grip i would sometimes shoot the ball so hard it would move defender back and go under. Now this was a long time ago and I havent played on solid rods since so my memory may be skewed, but I would think solid rods would cost more since there is more material and hollow less costly but then I guess that depends on the steel used and the precision of the manufacturing? The T3000 Ive been playing on I guess is as good as it gets to try to become competitive again by todays standards. Thanks a lot for input! I do miss th ole TS. Here is a pic of the table (not same one but same model i think if rods r solid) I learned and dominated way way way back in the day. Darn cant fig out how to insert the pic.