Topic: Which shooting style is better? Palm or wrist?

[VRViperII]

I've always shot using the wrist method.  By wrist method I mean that you hold the rod such that your thumb is at 9 oclock.  When you shoot, you twist your wrist clockwise then counter clockwise fast to shoot.  But lately my shot power doesn't seem to be improving anymore and someone taught me an alternative way of shooting, which I call the palm method.

In the palm method, you hold the rod such that your thumb is at 12 o'clock (top of the rod handle).  When you shoot, you slide your hand/palm down and quickly run it back up (something like the end part of a snake).

After a few tests, I find that the palm method SEEMS to be faster.  Since I just knew about this a while ago, it's going to take me a while to learn this new method.  Most of the better foosball players here that I see hold it using the palm method.  So the question is, is the palm method really better, or is it just personal preference?

[snake eyes]

I prefer the wrist style, my shot is faster and alot more accurate. occasionally i will toss in a palm roll pull kick (aka) Chris Dube.

Snake

[Daniel]

You can see a poll on this here

http://www.foosball.com/forum/index.php?topic=502.0

[invisiblesmoke]

Know how to do both.  If you are asking a question like this, you should also ask questions about stance to go along with it.

[foosinaround69]

Both have their advantages...and depend on what shot you are using. If your shooting a pull shot it is more consistant to shoot closed handed, because as soon as the foot of the man comes off the ball you cannot possibly hit it in the same spot every single time!!! One time you may shoot it on an angle the next it may be squared off,..you never know..You also allow the goalie to see(telegraphing) what you are doing because of the wind you have to do. That gives them a split second more time to block you. Shooting the push ...it is much better to use the open handed method...but it still is inconsistant!!! if you must use it try practicing not coming up off the ball as much. That is what I had to do with my shot and found I am much much more consistant than ever.  Still not enough... And yes your stance is everything!!!!!!!

[chance37]

the wrist shot doesn't wear on your wrist as bad.......the palm is more accurate.for most

[bbtuna]

the palm roll is not more accurate than a wrist shot for 99% of the things you would use it for

every good player can do both
when you use one or the other is based on the shot you choose
it is basic knowlege that the palm is used on certain shots and the wrist others
As with the push shot, you may find an exception to the rule but as I stated in that post, the rule is there for a reason and it is not wise to build key elements of your game around the exception when you have a choice

SHOTS AND CIRCUMSTANCE TO USE THE WRIST OR PALM ROLL (OPEN HANDED)

WRITST SHOTS

Pull shot - nearly 100%...out of the top 100 pull shot shooters (proven tournament history not local legend) none have ever used a palm roll to shoot their pull...this is true on the 3 and 2 bars
Pushkick - same as pull
Backpin - well, it doesn't have the history and despite someone on here saying they shoot a backpin succesfully using a palm roll, if you want to have a competition level backpin you will use your wrist
Sling shot - wrist only or you will launch the ball right off the table
Push from goal - the only time knowing players might use the open hand is if they are wanting to do a long and they want to square it off but if you are going to do that, you might as well shoot the pushkick.

PALM ROLL

Euro Pin -   nearly 100% just like pull only palm roll...I have seen people try and do this without using a palm roll, especially when trying to shoot the push side using the palm roll since that is so hard to do, but of the many proven Euro Pins from Europe (strangly enough eh ) they are all palm rolls
Rollover - Well, not really a palm roll but it is definately not a wrist shot except that it starts on your wrist...100% roll 
Bank Shots from the 2 rod - you can hit a bank with your wrist but it isn't as crsip or accurate and it is very hard on your wrist
Pull Kick from 3 rod - many more people who shoot this as a competition shot use the palm roll for all the options which move the ball from 3rd man to the 2 man and wrist for all the inside 3rd man pull options with the exception of a standing angle these are a little more mixed but I think it leans toward the wrist.  Some people will use the wrist with pick up shots and tic tac shots but for those who use it as a primary competition shot, I think you will find the largest group doing a palm roll...very natural feel, very hard, very fast, and can go very deep...I think this is the most accurate palm roll especially on Tornado...some other tables I would rank the bank shot from goal equally accurate but given the shape of the front foot on the Tornado man, the bank is not as accurate
Pull Kick from the 2 rod - now this is a complete mixed bag...I think you will see many of both and even from the same players.  as an example Todd Loffredo uses both...I think a lot of this depends on two things...if you are wanting to cut your pullkick back (the "7") then you will get the best results from your wrist because it is more accurate and allows you to preform the brush motion needed to preform the "7"...if you want straight on goal power you go open hand/palm roll...however, this can be dependent somewhat on the table and ball conditions because if the ball is fying off the table easily, then the wrist shot is probably the better option assuming you don't want to be launching the ball off the table every time you attempt the thing
Tic Tac from 3 bar - you will find both, more likely palm rolls on pull kick side than pushkick side but you will see many tic tacs done using the wrist in all circumstances
Push from 3 bar - now this is a totally mixed bag..plenty of both...open handed allows you to hit it harder, longer, and more square (all things being equal) the wrist will give you more accuracy inside and can still be powerful but there is nothing quite like a violent opened handed long push (unless you see me shoot one with my wrist )

the palm roll takes a little longer to do and so for things where you need a quicker response or more accurate strike you will use the wrist (pull, Pushkick, "7")...for those things where time isn't so much of an issue (pullkicks and banks) and/or you want more power (banks or showy tic tacs) then the palm roll is the way to go

[bbtuna]

oh, by the way...it is called a "palm" roll because you are only supposed to roll it to your palm...if you are wearing your wrist down then your roll is too long and needs to be shortened

[foosinaround69]

I use both methods VERY successfully depending on what is given to me at the time. Other people know a thing or two about this game too you know?? I just want to help anywhere I can just like the next guy!!!!! Everyone isn't the same.. so different advice is ok.   If you seen my backpin you would understand why I shoot it.    Even most of the pro-masters I know suggest staying with it. I also do other shots pretty good if I may say so, and for the record I did say that the "palm roll" is NOT as accurate.
I am an exception to the rule though... lol

[bbtuna]

chance 37 said the palm roll was more accurate

i would love to see your 3 bar palm roll backpin

like I said, there is an exception to every rule but if I am coaching people starting out I am going to give them the more tried and true higher percentage advice and not start them down a road of trying to be the exception

they can develop their own unique styles, approaches, stategies after they understnad the basics

this may not be the best way but I think it is the smartest way which is why I approach it the way that I do

I mean, this is coming from a guy who shoots a backpin as my primary shot and I think the backpin has the most potential of any shot on the 3 bar but it takes a very very significant committment to make it a consistent threat against all kinds of defenses like the proven shots in the game today

i love diversity and would love to play your palm roll backpin some day and maybe we will get that chance, you never know

[chance37]

bb....wish i could even shoot a backpin...but I can't Im just a rook....I actually had a brain fart and was thinking a wrist shot compared to a close handed shot...but I would think that the palm roll on a pull shot would be easier at first to learn and control due to the distance down your hand the handle goes and the more you have to time....??  Ive read about every post on this site...and love getting all the info you guys give....I am ocd and watch every video often getting laughed at...But to be a master I realize its gonna take all of my focus and hundreds of hundreds of hundreds of hours and years of dedication.  I just wish i had a coach that could work with my game technically.  There are guys here that give pointers...but what I've learned thus far is what I see on the internet and instructioal DVDs.  But won't be long and Ill be moving to Austin..plenty of great players there...I'd pay for training and coaching, but i feel that once I meet a great coach he'll see my dedication and ability to learn really fast and help...hopefully

[Rios]

look at the top players in the world... how many of them shoot open handed shots??? ZERO!!!!  Fredrico shoots a Euro-Pin which is open handed by nature, but for the most part he is wrist.

Open handed shots are for hacks!!!   ;o)

the only advantage is that they offer more power. Wrist shots are more accurate, faster, and can have equal power after a bit of practice.

when you are shooting your wrist style, put the ball back just behind the rod so it kind of pinches between the man and table surface, and you will see that your shot will have more velocity

[bbtuna]

Rios,

have you ever seen Chris Dube play...I ask because he shoots an open-handed/palm roll pullkick and I don't think anyone is going to call Chris a hack and if you did, I think he might break your knee caps

Chance,
finding a coach in foosball is very very hard...the sport doesn't seem to attrack very many people with this kind of personality...try to not get disappointed if you can't find someone who will personally dedicate themselves to your growth...just keep asking questions and talking to people

you may find a situation where you get someone dedicated but in the mean time you can make a lot of progress the other way...Todd Loffredo has always had the questioning personality and he says he learns from people at every level...he just loves talking and learning and sharing...(side note, I wish he would make himself more available because I think he is the best communicator in the sport)

TL had the chance to room with a current great when he could dedicate full time to the sport...many of the best players have had a situation like that at some time or another

you are welcome to contact me any time, i will always answer...I may not know what you need but if I don't think I can help I will say so...if you can contact me on here or via email anytime

backpinrules@yahoo.com

[Rios]

haha
naw I have never met him, but I have heard of him. I am sure that he is a good player. But like I said... how many of the top players in the world shoot open handed shots? I dont know what Chris is rated, but I would venture to guess that he is not above SemiPro... and if he is then he would be an exception to the open handed players... cause I have yet to see a Pro player and above consistantly use open handed shots as their main way of hitting the ball.

Dont get me wrong they do have their place.
Ex. Tony Spredeman uses an open handed pull kick right out of his stick lane, but then again Tony could probably use his feet to play and beat most people...

but as far as being consistant and high percentage shots.... wrist is the way to go

[snake eyes]

Actually Chris Dube is a Pro.....