Topic: Wall count question

[lambdacalculator]

Scenario: I block a 5-3 pass with my 5-rod by deflecting the ball, which stays under my rod but bounces off the wall before I gain control over it.

According to my reading of the ITSF rules, this pre-control contact with the wall is counted as one of my two contacts, since "active possession" began when the ball went under my rod the first time momentarily before I deflected it, which would mean that I only have one more legal wall contact left. Is that the correct interpretation?

Would this change if my block caused the ball to bounce out of reach of my 5-rod towards my opponents 5-rod but spin back into reach and off the wall before I could control it?

[bolt115]

I would think not as that would also include every time a wall pass is trapped.....

[lambdacalculator]

I would think not as that would also include every time a wall pass is trapped.....

The rules specifically address this situation: "A ball that is trapped on the 5-rod directly following a transition doesn't increase the wall contact count." But I wasn't asking about a trapped ball.

[bolt115]

If a stopped ball is passed from 5 rod to 3 rod - it is still illegal even if deflect off opposing 5 rod.  There is no  active possession.  It is not a stretch to apply same logic that deflects off man and hits wall.

[lambdacalculator]

If a stopped ball is passed from 5 rod to 3 rod - it is still illegal even if deflect off opposing 5 rod.  There is no  active possession.  It is not a stretch to apply same logic that deflects off man and hits wall.

The rules also deal with this situation -- it's called an "indirect-pass" (not sure why the rules use the hyphen here). Stretch or not, what I'm really looking for here is a definitive *ruling*. Are there any active referees reading this? How do you rule in this case? Do you start the wall count at 1 or 0? On what basis do you make this determination?

If this forum is not the proper place to get a definitive interpretation of the rules, where does one go for that?

[Slow But Effective]

If a stopped ball is passed from 5 rod to 3 rod - it is still illegal even if deflect off opposing 5 rod.  There is no  active possession.  It is not a stretch to apply same logic that deflects off man and hits wall.

The rules also deal with this situation -- it's called an "indirect-pass" (not sure why the rules use the hyphen here). Stretch or not, what I'm really looking for here is a definitive *ruling*. Are there any active referees reading this? How do you rule in this case? Do you start the wall count at 1 or 0? On what basis do you make this determination?

If this forum is not the proper place to get a definitive interpretation of the rules, where does one go for that?

Hi. This is one of those ones that, in my opinion, the reffing practice differs from the rules. You've analyzed it all correctly, e.g., that active possession begins when you can reach the ball. I think the rule should be changed to reference controlled possession instead of active possession. That first bounce off the wall doesn't count if you haven't first brought the ball into control. P.S. I'm not a ref. As to where to go to get answers, your best bet is to seek out certified refs at tournaments, and the full formal route is to "request an interpretation from the ITSF Rules Commission". I'm not sure how to do that though. :-)